What is the inherent problem with a 4x10?

[Konan888]

Presently I am using a Traynor TC115,Ampeg 2x10He and GK800RB.

I love the head. I am not totally happy with the cabs. When hitting a B note on the e string the 2x10 resonates and its annoying. I have been considering changing cabs. I was considering the 4x10 until now. I recently read that the
4x10's have inherent problems. What sre they?

I like to play reggae and rock. Should I consider something else?

[will33]

Search dispersion here. That's what inherently wrong although people have been playing them for years. I guess you don't know what you're missing if you don't have anything else to compare it to.

[KJung]

+1 on the dispersion, but that is relatively minor with bass guitar, and really only significantly impacts the frequencies between the upper mids and when a tweeter kicks in.

I've played a zillion gigs on 410's, vertical 210's, three way vertical 210 stacks with crossed over mid drivers, etc., and the difference in off axis performance once you get just a little ways in front of the cab (10 feet or so) is, for all purposes, about the same.

Much ado about very little, even though the effect is real.

IMO and about 35 years of IME.

Reggae and classic rock tones... absolutely ZERO issue.

[Roadkill]

I remember seeing a picture of a Ampeg Micro-VR stack with two of the 2x10 cabs stacks vertically - I bet that doesn't have the dispersion probs of a regular 4x10 but I'm not sure how easy it would be to keep from falling over ! Bet it kills though .

[R. Laevinus]

I didn't know there was an inherent problem with 4x10's.

I mean, they're an old concept, yeah, and I'm sure that there are technically better options out there these days, but I've done quite a few gigs on 4x10's and never had anybody tell me they had a problem with 'em.

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

I remember seeing a picture of a Ampeg Micro-VR stack with two of the 2x10 cabs stacks vertically - I bet that doesn't have the dispersion probs of a regular 4x10 but I'm not sure how easy it would be to keep from falling over ! Bet it kills though .

Correct that the dispersion is better in a vertical 410 then box type normal style...
Also, 4 speakers in a line array gets it closer to your ear. Depending on your situation that could matter a little or a lot.

As to your current situation... sounds liek the 2x10 is farting first, try using the biamp portion of your head, and start around 200 hz and sweep around until you like what you hear. You have two bass cabs, so as long as the 2`10 is 8 ohms youi can't really blow anything anywhere in the range allowed by the xover. It may not necissarily get louder as it is, but further moving up to a 4 ohm, larger bottom cab would help with that. Doing so could also allow you to move to an even smaller top cab.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by will33

Search dispersion here.

+1. With side by side drivers midrange dispersion is halved. That makes it harder for both the audience and the rest of the band to hear you. And with rig that's only about 24 inches high it's harder for you to hear yourself compared to one double that height. Having two cabs also allows you to turn the lower cab towards the drummer or other band members, making it possible for them to hear you far better without cranking up stage levels.

[Konan888]

I guess much is taken for granted. It is good to be patient. I just read about horizontal dispersion. Makes sense. Now what? I was just looking at the Genz Benz NEOX-212T 600W 2x12 Bass Cabinet. This is verticale mounted and designed that way. Are we saying here that manufacturers are making a product with inherent flaws just because? While others like Genz Benz are doing some things right?

[Son of Bovril]

Scientifically there ARE dispersion problems with the standard 410 design, but then again there are also design flaws in the Ampeg SVT and 810 but that seems to still be popular enough

Sometimes scientifically correct sound just doesn't sound as good to the human ear (which scientifically has plenty of sound problems itself)

[Konan888]

I tried the biamp portion and no matter what adjustment I make I still have it. I have had it in the speaker clinic for checks and all is ok. It seems to me that this particular note on a 2x10 is inherent.

Originally Posted by Bmorefoozler

Correct that the dispersion is better in a vertical 410 then box type normal style...
Also, 4 speakers in a line array gets it closer to your ear. Depending on your situation that could matter a little or a lot.

As to your current situation... sounds liek the 2x10 is farting first, try using the biamp portion of your head, and start around 200 hz and sweep around until you like what you hear. You have two bass cabs, so as long as the 2`10 is 8 ohms youi can't really blow anything anywhere in the range allowed by the xover. It may not necissarily get louder as it is, but further moving up to a 4 ohm, larger bottom cab would help with that. Doing so could also allow you to move to an even smaller top cab.

[shoot-r]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

I remember seeing a picture of a Ampeg Micro-VR stack with two of the 2x10 cabs stacks vertically - I bet that doesn't have the dispersion probs of a regular 4x10 but I'm not sure how easy it would be to keep from falling over ! Bet it kills though .

The idea is catching on...

The bassist on "Late Night with Jimmy Fallon" uses that exact set-up.

I'm a recent convert to a vertical stack, line array 410.
Absolutely love it, as does the group I work with!
Thank-you again BillF for getting me started on this idea...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Konan888

I guess much is taken for granted. It is good to be patient. I just read about horizontal dispersion. Makes sense. Now what? I was just looking at the Genz Benz NEOX-212T 600W 2x12 Bass Cabinet. This is verticale mounted and designed that way. Are we saying here that manufacturers are making a product with inherent flaws just because? While others like Genz Benz are doing some things right?

Genz Benz makes a couple VERY nice 410's.

Again, it is kind of like talking about aerodynamics in cars. There really is only one absolutely best shape for a car, but varying that a bit makes things more interesting and results in only a very slight performance issue, in the thread's case, a bit less upper mid dispersion.

I have 'vertical' 212's and also various 410's. Yes, there is a slight difference in disperson in the upper mids area. However, the vast majority of 410's will bury the vast majority of 212's in absolute volume and projection. So, pick your poison.

That being said, that Genz 212 is a nice one... very tight, grindy, bright and punchy. I prefer the Bergantino AE212. Of course, 12's still beam a bit in the upper mids, so if you really want to 'drink the Kool-aid', you should look for a vertical oriented 212 with a mid driver However, those boxes have their own inherent tone that you might or might not like.

I recently purchased a wonderful sounding Audiokinesis Thunder Child 112 that takes another approach to the dispersion issue in the upper mids... using a relatively low crossed over PA type horn to the top end of the bass guitar's sound.

All nice stuff, but I would NEVER pick a cab based on slight dispersion improvement in a relatively narrow range of the bass guitar if I didn't dig the tone.

IMO and again, a ton of IME on this one!

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by Konan888

I guess much is taken for granted. It is good to be patient. I just read about horizontal dispersion. Makes sense. Now what? I was just looking at the Genz Benz NEOX-212T 600W 2x12 Bass Cabinet. This is verticale mounted and designed that way. Are we saying here that manufacturers are making a product with inherent flaws just because? While others like Genz Benz are doing some things right?

Back in the early days, tube heads were big honking wide monsters, 2 speakers wide roughly. So early cabinets were built 2 12" speakers wide. It worked well enough for most not to care when they later figured out what would work better. PA systems, as you see, have made the transition. There may have been an old 4x10 community PA speaker back in the day, but you won't see one anywhere anymore.

[stiles72]

10's in general just don't do it for me because most of the cabs I've played with 10's sound farty, aren't ported, and don't seem to have the low end that I like. If I did have to play through a 410, I 'd probably go with the Ampeg 410HLF.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bmorefoozler

PA systems, as you see, have made the transition. There may have been an old 4x10 community PA speaker back in the day, but you won't see one anywhere anymore.

+1 With the more full range PA application, with LOTS going on in the upper mids/lower treble, this issue is more troublesome, and PA's have moved to those vertical line arrays with 'clustered subs' for the most part.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Konan888

I was just looking at the Genz Benz NEOX-212T 600W 2x12 Bass Cabinet. This is verticale mounted and designed that way. Are we saying here that manufacturers are making a product with inherent flaws just because? While others like Genz Benz are doing some things right?

Manufacturers build what sells, what sells is looks, and what looks familiar sells better than what doesn't. Some manufacturers have started building cabs that pay more attention to how they sound instead of how they look, mainly because due to sites like this one consumers are learning that what looks best seldom translates into what sounds best.

Originally Posted by Son of Bovril

Scientifically there ARE dispersion problems with the standard 410 design, but then again there are also design flaws in the Ampeg SVT and 810 but that seems to still be popular enough

Sometimes scientifically correct sound just doesn't sound as good to the human ear (which scientifically has plenty of sound problems itself)

An oft made argument, but only valid if you're comparing two different options side by side. Until recently the consumer hasn't had the option of comparing speaker technology that was cutting edge in 1969 to something else because manufacturers didn't make anything else to compare it to.

aren't those line arrays still just multiple cabs of TWO SIDE BY SIDE speakers stacked vertically on a chain type system that allows them to tilt the whole assembly?

Hardly. http://gtaust.com/filter/06/08.shtml

[Son of Bovril]

aren't those line arrays still just multiple cabs of TWO SIDE BY SIDE speakers stacked vertically on a chain type system that allows them to tilt the whole assembly?

out of interest, does the berg NV610 have substantially better dispersion than an ampeg 810 because of the speaker placement?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Son of Bovril

aren't those line arrays still just multiple cabs of TWO SIDE BY SIDE speakers stacked vertically on a chain type system that allows them to tilt the whole assembly?

out of interest, does the berg NV610 have substantially better dispersion than an ampeg 810 because of the speaker placement?

My understanding is that slight offset doesn't help much, but again, there isn't much in the upper mid voicing (at least way up there in the upper mids/lower treble) and above with those cabs anyway (especially with most of the bass tones of guys who play those particular cabs), so again, not much of an issue IMO and IME.

Those line arrays are a bit more complicated than that. I believe the couple of drivers are separated (high freq horn in between them) and slanted or whatever to not interact, but over my head there. BillF would obviously know.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Konan888

Presently I am using a Traynor TC115,Ampeg 2x10He and GK800RB.

I love the head. I am not totally happy with the cabs. When hitting a B note on the e string the 2x10 resonates and its annoying. I have been considering changing cabs. I was considering the 4x10 until now. I recently read that the
4x10's have inherent problems. What sre they?

I like to play reggae and rock. Should I consider something else?

In your situation, I'd say an SVT-410HLF would be about perfect - they sound great with G-K heads, and get some of the best low end of any bass cab on the market...



- georgestrings

[will33]

Originally Posted by stiles72

10's in general just don't do it for me because most of the cabs I've played with 10's sound farty, aren't ported, and don't seem to have the low end that I like. If I did have to play through a 410, I 'd probably go with the Ampeg 410HLF.

Pretty wide generalization there, there are 10's that can play deeper than 18's, etc. but if all you're comparing is "regular" bass cabs I can see where you'd come to that opinion.