What lightweight cab to pair up with a 410 cab?

[WillieDikker]

My quest for a lightweight rig is yet again changing. I have decided to respeaker my Ampeg 410 with some Legend B810's. I'd still like to grab up a small cab to use at practice and see how it does at small gigs. I've inquired here before about running a 210 with a 410 and not alot agree that would be a wise choice. I'm thinking of maybe a 112. I also have a Ampeg cab with a 15 and a 10 in it. Would a 112 work with that too? Just looking for the best sounding, most versatile cab to add to the arsenal. Thanks

[1n3]

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

I've inquired here before about running a 210 with a 410 and not alot agree that would be a wise choice.

Really? That surprises me.

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

I'm thinking of maybe a 112. I also have a Ampeg cab with a 15 and a 10 in it. Would a 112 work with that too? Just looking for the best sounding, most versatile cab to add to the arsenal.

I'm not a 410 fan because of the side-by-side speaker arrangement. But I'd expect a 210 (with same speakers and cabinet tuning) to be the best companion to a 410. Too much potential for trouble when different speakers cover the same frequency range.

Ideally, all 6 speakers (410+210) would see the same load when used together. With 16ohm speakers in parallel, you could have a 4ohm 410 + an 8ohm 210.

[WillieDikker]

From what I gather, you would be putting, say, 250w to the 410 and 250w to the 210, hence driving the drivers in the 210 harder than in the 410. I my situation, the drivers in the 210 WOULD be different also. If I'm using either of my bigger cabs, I'd like to add a smaller, lighter cab to get the most from my amp and hopefully the fact that it's small and light will make the traveling factor not that noticable. I guess with the stated argument above, a 210 wouldn't even be a good idea with my 1510HE because that even would have a different 10 in it. That's why I was wondering about a 12.

Originally Posted by 1n3

Really? That surprises me.



I'm not a 410 fan because of the side-by-side speaker arrangement. But I'd expect a 210 (with same speakers and cabinet tuning) to be the best companion to a 410. Too much potential for trouble when different speakers cover the same frequency range.

Ideally, all 6 speakers (410+210) would see the same load when used together. With 16ohm speakers in parallel, you could have a 4ohm 410 + an 8ohm 210.

[SurferJoe46]

Maybe I misunderstand the question. You are really asking about multiple sets of 10-inch speakers - right?

If I follow this at all, and since I figure that the 10s have certain aspects of sound reproduction that are typically inherent with their size and dynamics then you aren't gaining much but more speakers to hump in and out of the gig.

If I understand the question correctly and had my say I'd add a 1-15 for some deeper sounds and just enjoy the 10s as the power-upper higher Hz pushers and then the 15 becomes used as a lower Hz addition.

Even better if the 1-15 has a folded horn too.

That way you'd have pretty much all the bass spectrum covered a lot better and not just limited to a bunch of 10s that are all pretty much replicating themselves only more of them.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

From what I gather, you would be putting, say, 250w to the 410 and 250w to the 210, hence driving the drivers in the 210 harder than in the 410.

No. In the scenario I outlined, the 210 cab would draw half the power of the 410, because it has twice the impedance. But each of the six speakers draws the same power, so the combination becomes effectively a 610 cab.

I hadn't read carefully enough to notice that you're committed to the Legend B810, which is a 32 ohm speaker. Wired in parallel, four of those will make an 8 ohm cabinet; two will make a 16 ohm cabinet. Those two cabinets (410+210) would combine for a 5.3 ohm load. Pretty workable.

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

I my situation, the drivers in the 210 WOULD be different also.

With the re-speakering of the 410, and possible acquisition of a 210, you have the opportunity to make them match. That assumes you'd use the same speakers in the 210 cab, and that the cabinet tuning would be similar. That's my suggestion.

Sure, you can combine different speakers; it's done all the time. The often-mentioned problem with doing that is, you run the risk of phase problems by using different speakers to cover the same frequencies. Many ignore that fact, or they like the comb filtering that can result.

And if you buy a 210 cab that's 8 ohms, then you would have the scenario you described, where each speaker in the 210 pulls twice the power of each speaker in the 410. With a 4 ohm 210, or an 8 ohm 112 cab, the load mismatch is worse.

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

If I follow this at all, and since I figure that the 10s have certain aspects of sound reproduction that are typically inherent with their size and dynamics then you aren't gaining much but more speakers to hump in and out of the gig.

Not true. You are gaining additional speaker cone area and lowering impedance, gaining both sensitivity and low-end extension.

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

If I understand the question correctly and had my say I'd add a 1-15 for some deeper sounds and just enjoy the 10s as the power-upper higher Hz pushers and then the 15 becomes used as a lower Hz addition.

Even better if the 1-15 has a folded horn too.

That way you'd have pretty much all the bass spectrum covered a lot better and not just limited to a bunch of 10s that are all pretty much replicating themselves only more of them.

That might be true if you used a crossover to separate the frequencies by cabinet - lows to one, highs to the other. But I don't think that's what the OP has in mind. You can mix and match without a crossover, but it's just a crapshoot.

[SurferJoe46]

Originally Posted by 1n3

Not true. You are gaining additional speaker cone area and lowering impedance, gaining both sensitivity and low-end extension.

I'll buy that, but can you tell me why lower impedance also results in lower freq response and freq perception? Somehow the concept escapes me.

Just increasing the mass of accelerated air with more of the same speakers and therefor greater sound wave pressure doesn't sound like getting more low-end extension or capacity to me.

Freqs are not responsive to greater mass-flow or motion, just the number of cycles - right?

It can MAYBE be perceived as louder by adding more 10-inch speakers but I don't see it getting better and/or lower Hz response just by increasing the sheer number of drivers.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

I'll buy that, but can you tell me why lower impedance also results in lower freq response and freq perception? Somehow the concept escapes me. ...

It can MAYBE be perceived as louder by adding more 10-inch speakers but I don't see it getting better and/or lower Hz response just by increasing the sheer number of drivers.

The lower impedance increases current, which increases wattage, which = louder.

That has nothing to do with improved extension (lower frequency response), which is a result of two things:

1. Greater cone area offers more resistance to the air, and more effective loading. If you think about what happens when you put your hand in water and move it around, it might make more sense. When you move your hand back and forth quickly (high frequency), the water offers a lot of resistance, and it's easy to do a lot of work. When you move your hand slowly (low frequency), the water doesn't offer much resistance, and it's hard do work on (put energy into) the water. Now, if you put a large paddle in your hand, you can do a lot more work at low frequency, because you've got more area working, and a better impedance match. Same thing happens with speakers.

2. Multiple speakers benefit from coupling effects when working near each other. Acting together, low-frequency loading improves.

[WillieDikker]

Boy, thanks for all the info. A bit technical for my feeble mind, but great to learn new stuff. I committed to the B810 as it's a plug in replacement for the 32ohm speakers that are in my SVT cab now. I have run my 410 and 1510 together in the past and think it sounds really good. We'll see how it does with the new speakers. The 10 in the 1510 cab is getting replaced also. Now here's another loop. All this talk seems to be with running the speakers in a stack. What if you run a cab on each side of the stage? I used to do this years ago when we had less/no PA support. I'd have my 410 over by me and the drummer and my 1510 over on the guitar players side. Does doing something like this negate the phasing/coupling arguments or just move any problem farther out into the room? Just last night my guitar player was talking about the old days when I drug out my whole rig and how he's like to have me do that again. Yeah, that's right, a guitar player that want the bass player to bring MORE gear! Maybe that's why we've been jamming so long together. Now to get the singer to help me haul and unload it

[1n3]

Yes, all my comments were based on the assumption that you'd stack the cabinets. If you're going to separate them, you'll have phasing anyway, and it will matter less what your second cab is. Results will vary from room to room.

Cab impedance will still be an issue for power balancing. Your 410 will be 8 ohms. If your 1510 is also 8 ohms, they should pull about the same power. Personally, I'd want the speaker behind me to do most of the work, and the other speaker to be more of a bass monitor. For that, a 16 ohm cab would work well.

You also wanted a small cab for standalone use. A 16 ohm 210 would work for that, with a couple caveats: it wouldn't pull a lot of power alone, and might not be a good match alone for a tube head.

You are replacing the 10 in your 1510 with what - a B810? Is the 1510 an 8 ohm cab?

[WillieDikker]

The 1510 is an 8ohm cab. I'm putting in a Delta 10B. That was the only one I found to go in without a rewire. 16ohm 10's seem to be not needed too often I guess. I guess I could always get a lightweight 410. Haul that around all the time. Leave the 1510 at the practice house and bring the heavy 410 out for bigger gigs when I want it. Kinda defeats the whole downsizing thing I'm trying to do though

[1n3]

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

The 1510 is an 8ohm cab. I'm putting in a Delta 10B.

If the 1510 is an 8 ohm cab, that should have an 8 ohm 15, an 8 ohm 10, and a crossover. The Delta 10B is a 16 ohm speaker, so is an odd replacement. It will pull half the power of your original speaker, and change the crossover frequency. Unless I'm missing something...

[WillieDikker]

Originally Posted by 1n3

If the 1510 is an 8 ohm cab, that should have an 8 ohm 15, an 8 ohm 10, and a crossover. The Delta 10B is a 16 ohm speaker, so is an odd replacement. It will pull half the power of your original speaker, and change the crossover frequency. Unless I'm missing something...

The stock one is a 16ohm and the Delta 10B was also the recommended replacement when I contacted Fliptops. Not a wiring guy, but wouldn't 2 16ohm speakers wired in series be 8 ohm? My 410 has 4 32ohms and is a 8ohm.

[Bmorefoozler]

The cab doesn't cross the woofers, they are all run full range. There may be a high pass on the 6's. The 15 and 10 are in a simple parrallel arrangement to my knowledge.

[SurferJoe46]

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

The stock one is a 16ohm and the Delta 10B was also the recommended replacement when I contacted Fliptops. Not a wiring guy, but wouldn't 2 16ohm speakers wired in series be 8 ohm? My 410 has 4 32ohms and is a 8ohm.

Two 16 Ohm speakers in PARALLEL = 8 Ohms.
Two 16 OHM speakers in SERIES = 32 Ohms

The 410:::
Four 32 OHM speakers made to have 8 Ohms would be Two in PARALLEL (for a total of 16 Ohms) & those Two pairs @ 16 Ohms then wired in SERIES to equal the 8 Ohm total.

You'd have a Series/Parallel set-up that way.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by Bmorefoozler

The cab doesn't cross the woofers, they are all run full range. There may be a high pass on the 6's. The 15 and 10 are in a simple parrallel arrangement to my knowledge.

OK, thanks. If true, this would explain why the 10 in a 1510 8 ohm cabinet is 16 ohms. A goofy setup, IMO. Speakers are not isolated from each other in the cabinet either, I suppose...

[1n3]

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

The stock one is a 16ohm and the Delta 10B was also the recommended replacement when I contacted Fliptops. Not a wiring guy, but wouldn't 2 16ohm speakers wired in series be 8 ohm?

I assumed your cab had an internal crossover, where the signal from the amp is split between two 8 ohm speakers, and the total impedance of the cab remains 8 ohms. But if Bmorefoozler is correct, you have two 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for 8 ohms total. If so, your cab does internally what I've suggested you avoid; using different speakers to cover the same frequency range.

Looks like I've made way too many assumptions on this thread.

[jokerjkny]

on the cheap, avatar neo b210
got cash, berg ae210.

[WillieDikker]

Originally Posted by 1n3

OK, thanks. If true, this would explain why the 10 in a 1510 8 ohm cabinet is 16 ohms. A goofy setup, IMO. Speakers are not isolated from each other in the cabinet either, I suppose...

Actually the 10 is sealed in it's own chamber and the 15 (along with a tweeter) take up the rest of the front ported cabinet. Not sure if the tweeter is isolated or not. It's actually a nice sounding cab.

[SurferJoe46]

Originally Posted by jokerjkny

on the cheap, avatar neo b210
got cash, berg ae210.

I thought Avatars were $$$

[1n3]

Originally Posted by WillieDikker

Actually the 10 is sealed in it's own chamber and the 15 (along with a tweeter) take up the rest of the front ported cabinet. Not sure if the tweeter is isolated or not. It's actually a nice sounding cab.

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't familiar with this cab, so did a search. According to this thread, it has a crossover network, but with the horn on the high side, and the 15 and 10 together in parallel on the low side.

But this is all a sidetrack to your original question. Back to that...

I still think a 210 with B810's would be the best match with your 410 after speaker replacement. But here's one last thought: You could get a 210 with (2) 8 ohm speakers. Normally, that'd be wired in parallel to make a 4 ohm cabinet. But you could add a switch to change it from parallel to series wiring. In series, it'd be 16 ohms, so a decent match when stacked on top of your 410, or as a satellite speaker on the other side of the stage with either the 1510 or the 410. Then if you wanted to use the 210 by itself, you could switch it to 4 ohms for more volume.