What makes an 8x10 do what it does?

[hardtwister]

Originally Posted by rollerberg2000

Larger speaker diameter doesn't mean "louder". If bigger speakers were better, we would have seen 3 foot diameter subs with 400 lb. magnets by now....

Whoa..

[Tony Flow MMMM]

FYI I'm out, I have bad history with forum debates

#LEARNYOURLIMITS

[hardtwister]

Originally Posted by Tony Flow MMMM

But your putting the chicken before the egg it seems.

We don't have frets placed in the position they are BECAUSE of math. No, people have played fretless long before, the math is just a tool for standardizing it in construction.

We're getting off subject because the debate was about the math in a speaker configurations. Anyho.

Music isn't formed because of math, music is formed and then translated into math because it makes it easier to share with others. Without math or numbers there would still be a beats per minute we just wouldn't have anything to call it. And there's no rule that says it has to stay cobsistant so there goes that math. As far as chord structures they sound good because of the ways the waves combine, we just use math to explain the waves.

Theory of relativity IS similar in that there are no hard facts, its all dependent on millions if things relative to the human.

Love.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by Got2SadowskyNYC

8 10 inch speakers gives you 80 inches of surface area moving air.

4 10s and a 15 gives you 55 inches of surface area.

10's react faster than a 15 so they sound punchier at close range. 15s being slower to respond sound woffier at close range.

Move your ear out about 20 - 30 feet and the waves have had time to fully develope and they will sound almost the same.

An 8x10 is 628.31856 sq. inches of speaker area.

The rest of what you have said is myth though many intelligent people believe it.

SVTs are punchy because of their sealed design. They don't project very far and so provide and excellent near source of bass material. They don't go very low. SVTs roll off at 70Hz pretty severely. The design is excellent as a musical device not as a perfect full range accurate sound source.
As was said above if you like their thing then they are right for you. Even when it was invented there were other equally effective choices. The Sunn 2000s and Acoustic 360 all appealed to different tastes. I can't get involved in a one is better debate. Its subjective.

[subbasshz]

couple 8x10s and a few 2x18s is a good practise rig.

[vishuddha]

Originally Posted by hardtwister

Apples and rotten oranges? Rotten oranges??? Lotta guys like/run the 1x15 & 4x10 setup. Lotta guys that can play..

I've met many, many great players that have no idea about gear. In fact, my roommate is a mindblowing bass player... he can do crazy things with a guitar but he didn't even know how to tell if his bass was active or passive, and he has had his ohm selector on his head set on the wrong level for like, 6 years before someone told him.

Some people like to chase tones, and some people just want to pick up a bass and play it.

Just because there are good players that don't do their research and believe subversive marketing doesn't mean that a 410+115 setup isn't inferior.

[Tony Flow MMMM]

Originally Posted by vishuddha

Just because there are good players that don't do their research and believe subversive marketing doesn't mean that a 410+115 setup isn't inferior.

True I have heard this combo make a sound two 410s couldn't.

[lowphatbass]

What makes an 8x10 do what it does?

I'd say the player, the bass and the amp. I've been backlined with 8x10s with "less than great" amps on top of them and the whole situation wasn't all that special. The basic beauty of "the Fridge" is being able to fill just about any size stage with a good bass tone that's easy to hear, not too bright and has a natural "roll off" around the area that can generally "exite" the stage and/or cause rumble.

I'm not going to back it up with math or science, but I think the "classic" 8x10 is less effected by the room and stage acoustics than some other setups....it's a solid, consistant rig.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by vishuddha

I've met many, many great players that have no idea about gear. In fact, my roommate is a mindblowing bass player... he can do crazy things with a guitar but he didn't even know how to tell if his bass was active or passive, and he has had his ohm selector on his head set on the wrong level for like, 6 years before someone told him.

Some people like to chase tones, and some people just want to pick up a bass and play it.

Just because there are good players that don't do their research and believe subversive marketing doesn't mean that a 410+115 setup isn't inferior.

Agreed, and in fact I'd go further and say a majority of people who spend all their time gigging do not spend much time learning the science of how their gear works. I'm not saying "everyone", but a majority. After all, if you are constantly busy playing, and people are paying you to keep playing, what incentive is there to get into the science and math part?

So saying "a lot of bigtime pros are happy with XYZ rig" means absolutely nothing as a response to discussion of how efficiently a cab combination performs, or whether it reproduces a certain fundamental. A lot of bigtime pros are perfectly happy with inefficient gear that could have been designed better, because they have put all of their "caring" into the non-technical part of their musicianship.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Tony Flow MMMM

True I have heard this combo make a sound two 410s couldn't.

He said "isn't", not "is"... Meaning you got his point backwards.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by Got2SadowskyNYC

8 10 inch speakers gives you 80 inches of surface area moving air.

4 10s and a 15 gives you 55 inches of surface area.

10's react faster than a 15 so they sound punchier at close range. 15s being slower to respond sound woffier at close range.

Move your ear out about 20 - 30 feet and the waves have had time to fully develope and they will sound almost the same.

Sound waves do not need time (or distance) to "fully develop" (ever wear headphones? hear the bass? 'nuff said.)

And regarding speaker output, there is SO MUCH MORE to the equation than mere speaker diameter. (Btw, you might want to look up pi r squared in calculating the area of a circle).

And Bass Pounder's comment that a 4x10 and 1x15 combo is not a good combo from a sound production perspective is not just an opinion (but such a stack sure might look darn cool, eh!)

[Tony Flow MMMM]

Originally Posted by bongomania

He said "isn't", not "is"... Meaning you got his point backwards.

Woops!

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by rollerberg2000

Larger speaker diameter doesn't mean "louder". If bigger speakers were better, we would have seen 3 foot diameter subs with 400 lb. magnets by now....

Dang it Rollerberg, does this mean I need to stop hauling around eight of these?

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Agreed, and in fact I'd go further and say a majority of people who spend all their time gigging do not spend much time learning the science of how their gear works. I'm not saying "everyone", but a majority. After all, if you are constantly busy playing, and people are paying you to keep playing, what incentive is there to get into the science and math part?

So saying "a lot of bigtime pros are happy with XYZ rig" means absolutely nothing as a response to discussion of how efficiently a cab combination performs, or whether it reproduces a certain fundamental. A lot of bigtime pros are perfectly happy with inefficient gear that could have been designed better, because they have put all of their "caring" into the non-technical part of their musicianship.

Not only that, but a lot of cats at that level are working on a consistent basis with some of the best sound engineers in the business who are the ones really working the magic for the FOH. So it's not really a big deal if you have a pure DI signal for a good bass but you have a really inefficient setup for your backline.

[sokolasty]

Originally Posted by Got2SadowskyNYC

8 10 inch speakers gives you 80 inches of surface area moving air.

4 10s and a 15 gives you 55 inches of surface area.

Actually 8x10" is 8x~52 sq inch and 4x10"+1x15" is 4x~52sq inch + ~132 sq inch.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by ThisBass

Paradox

But where is the physical origin of 2nd and 3d Harmonics?

+1

Btw our western music(12 tones) is basically based on math
http://jackhdavid.thehouseofdavid.com/papers/math.html

[iualum]

Originally Posted by hardtwister

What do you run?

LDS 215 w/3015s & Selenium D220Ti/HM25-25.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Mugre

All the factors that define western music are based on mathematic principles that describe the physics of sound. The placement of your frets was described and defined by Pythagoras. Those same ratios that describe the harmonic series describe harmonic (chordal) theory. At one level of understanding, all that music is, is math. Music is not noise because it is structured instead of chaotic and structures can be measured and described mathematically. Therefore we can describe it, understand it and discern it from magic.

The above in no way connotes that I don't believe that music is also artistic expression and capable of magical sublimity.

mugre

Yes.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by rollerberg2000

Larger speaker diameter doesn't mean "louder". If bigger speakers were better, we would have seen 3 foot diameter subs with 400 lb. magnets by now....

I don't think anyone stated that larger speakers were louder in & of themselves. What has been stated is that potential loudness stems from Vd (Sd/Xmax) & sensitivity.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by Arjank

+1

Btw our western music(12 tones) is basically based on math
http://jackhdavid.thehouseofdavid.com/papers/math.html

Chicken & Egg? Math is used to teach, describe and study music but music isn't based on Math. On the other hand I can see it that way if you want to say the whole cosmos is based on Math.