What makes my lows clear?

Ski3223 · #1 07-20-2010, 07:03 PM

I'm sure this has been covered already, but I am a total noob when it comes to amp/speaker/electric workings. I just don't know much.

I played through a GK backline that had lots of tone character, but the lows got a little muddy (1 12" speaker 100w). But when I play my Rumble 100 with the same bass (1 15" and a tweeter, 100w) I get much more clarity in the lows. However, the rumble lacks a lot of tonal character. Can't do a whole lot with it. The Rumble is also much larger in size.

Is it the speaker size that gives the lows much more clarity? Better preamp? Size of the "cab" around the speaker?

P.S. - I used the same EQ settings on both amps
GK: Low 1oclock, mid 3oclock, high 12oclock
Rumble: Low 1:30oclock, low mid 3oclock, high mid 12oclock, high 12oclock
Bass: flat on low mid and treble.

bolt_thrower · #2 07-20-2010, 07:09 PM

It's a combination of many things, but I would say that the cab is the most important aspect followed by your amp and the EQing is crucial too. Cab first though IMO.

anonymous02282011 · #3 07-20-2010, 07:12 PM

[quote=Ski3223;9437460Is it the speaker size that gives the lows much more clarity? Better preamp? Size of the "cab" around the speaker?[/QUOTE]

More than likely it's the higher roll-off of the low end. IE, rolling off at 50 Hz is likely to sound "clearer" than rolling off at a lower frequency, like 30 Hz.

I'm pretty sure the Fender Rumble has a fairly high roll off frequency. They might publish that somewhere. I'm too lazy to look for you.

Ski3223 · #4 07-20-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

I'm pretty sure the Fender Rumble has a fairly high roll off frequency. They might publish that somewhere. I'm too lazy to look for you.

What does "roll off" mean specifically? I've seen this terminology used but I don't really understand it.

anonymous02282011 · #5 07-20-2010, 07:20 PM

ah ****.

Ok, so when manufacturers state that a certain cabinet has a frequency response from like, 50Hz to 4kHz, it DOESN'T mean that everything below 50Hz just disappears. What it means is that you get a gradual decrease in volume of frequencies lower than 50Hz. This gradual decrease is called a "roll off".

Cool?

Ski3223 · #6 07-20-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

Cool?

Makes perfect sense! Thanks for the clarification!

muddycreek · #7 07-20-2010, 07:24 PM

What makes your lows sound clear is your mids.

JamcoPasamerson · #8 07-20-2010, 07:26 PM

There are no clarity in lows. Clarity you get from high mids and highs. You aren't going to get to much for lows out of a single 12" speaker. If you want cleaner lows that still have that clarity try running the 12" and the 15" together. Or scrap the whole rig and get yourself something in a 4X10. Also (just my opinion mind you) GK's aren't much for tone, too transistor-ie / sterile for my taste. But then again tone is a very subjective thing, some prefer a harsher / brighter tone. I personally like the warmth of a good old tube amp. Just sounds truer / more organic to me. Best of luck to you.

muddycreek · #9 07-20-2010, 07:27 PM

Sorry, that wasn't really helpful. Mids and low mids that are junked up, due to the driver itself or the enclosure it's in, make the whole sound muddy or unclear. As long as the first harmonic or so is coming out of the speaker strong, and maybe a bit below that, then clear mids will make for clear perceived lows. Another contributor might be impulse response, basically meaning that there's enough extra driver excursion and signal chain headroom that the loudest parts of the notes (generally the attack) come through more or less intact. Something clipping, from the pickups on to the power amp, or the speaker running out of excursion, can be a sound people like, but most won't describe it as 'clear.' This is one reason why some prefer craploads of power.

anonymous02282011 · #10 07-20-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski3223

Makes perfect sense! Thanks for the clarification!

nice.

muddycreek · #11 07-20-2010, 07:28 PM

JamcoPasamerson posted between... I mean my own post was not helpful... carry on...

anonymous02282011 · #12 07-20-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamcoPasamerson

There are no clarity in lows. Clarity you get from high mids and highs. You aren't going to get to much for lows out of a single 12" speaker. If you want cleaner lows that still have that clarity try running the 12" and the 15" together. Or scrap the whole rig and get yourself something in a 4X10. Also (just my opinion mind you) GK's aren't much for tone, too transistor-ie / sterile for my taste. But then again tone is a very subjective thing, some prefer a harsher / brighter tone. I personally like the warmth of a good old tube amp. Just sounds truer / more organic to me. Best of luck to you.

Speaker size and/or configuration are no indication of where the low frequency cut off begins.

In other words, you could well design a really boomy, muddy 4x10.

I feel you though.

Ski3223 · #13 07-20-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamcoPasamerson

There are no clarity in lows. Clarity you get from high mids and highs. You aren't going to get to much for lows out of a single 12" speaker.

So (sorta) what you're saying is that the GK isn't putting much through in the mids? i.e. boosting those would bring out the clarity in the lows? Or maybe cutting the lows?

Or conversely, with the Rumble its that tweeter helping out the highs and mids that's clearing up that low end?

gbarchus · #14 07-20-2010, 10:47 PM

Two things you've already stated: the Rumble has a 15" speaker and the box is larger. All other things being equal, that could be the difference. But, quality of the speaker, the amp, and the tuning of the cabinet also contribute.

Gale

MIJ-VI · #15 07-20-2010, 11:07 PM

This is a link to the PJB BG-300.
http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=11

If one throws on some half-decent 'phones and clicks the video tab in said link, one will hear the sound of the PJB combo being compared to the contrasting tones of a 10", a 12", and a 15" cab.

M0ses · #16 07-20-2010, 11:14 PM

Your Rumble's "lows" are clearer because you're boosting low mids. I guess you did it by luck, but you could have figured it out, couldn't you?

And you asked if the tweeter was helping with the mids, which it isn't, because it's a tweeter and it only puts out high-highs.

WalterBush · #17 07-20-2010, 11:19 PM

More power and better cabinet design.

Look at how PAs are constructed. Professional ones, not the speakers-on-a-stick your local DJ hauls around.

They've got well-designed subs, bass bins, mid cabs and tweeters, several thousand watts (at least) of headroom available in the power amps, and in ideal circumstances have a reliable source of power with little or no voltage drop and nothing else putting a load on the circuit.

That's how you get clear bass, clear mids, clear highs, clear everything.

JamcoPasamerson · #18 07-21-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

Speaker size and/or configuration are no indication of where the low frequency cut off begins.

In other words, you could well design a really boomy, muddy 4x10.

Absolutely correct. I was referring more to getting boomy lows at a decent volume. You are going to have trouble keeping up playing even a small venue with nothing more than a single twelve. Eventually with only one speaker of that size things are going to get muddy. Or should I say middy? Distorted, in other words. I've heard some nice sounding speakers of all shapes and sizes but it all depends on what you are going for. Judging from the way the question was phrased it sounded to me like Ski3223 would probably prefer the sound of a quality 4X10 cabinet. As I said it's all subjective which can make it difficult to answer questions like these. But thanks for pointing out my lack of CLARITY. (No pun intended) ;-)

JamcoPasamerson · #19 07-21-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski3223

So (sorta) what you're saying is that the GK isn't putting much through in the mids? i.e. boosting those would bring out the clarity in the lows? Or maybe cutting the lows?

Or conversely, with the Rumble its that tweeter helping out the highs and mids that's clearing up that low end?

Ummm, not exactly. All I was saying is that I am not particularly fond of GK's in general, but that is a matter of personal taste. As far as boosting the mids goes, in theory that could help. But again it depends on many factors such as volume, power, number and size of speakers, make and model of speakers, make and model of amp, tube verses transistor, etc. A lot of tone has to do with experience. I have heard some surprisingly good tones coming out of some very cheap gear and vise versa.

Tweeters and mids help with clarity of sound in general not clarity of lows per say. But no matter what your running if you push it too hard it's going to get muddy.

This may be an over simplified solution but have you thought of picking out a bassist who's tone you like (famous or otherwise) then doing some research to find out what type of gear and settings they use? If you can't afford what they use try doing searches or maybe ask a dealer about comparable rigs that are more affordable. Just a thought.

anonymous02282011 · #20 07-21-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski3223

So (sorta) what you're saying is that the GK isn't putting much through in the mids? i.e. boosting those would bring out the clarity in the lows? Or maybe cutting the lows?

Yes, yes and yes. Try all those. You may also want to go the GK site and see exactly what frequencies those knobs labeled 'Low' 'mid' 'hi' etc correspond to. If nothing else you may learn to differentiate various parts of the frequency range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski3223

Or conversely, with the Rumble its that tweeter helping out the highs and mids that's clearing up that low end?

That could be possible too. IME, sometimes you can have those low-lows if the attack of the note (ie, the high end) can provide some definition.

You're asking all the right questions, and you're going to get some mixed responses. Take what you can, do some experimenting/listening. That's my recommendation.