What are you downtuning / ERB guys using for cabs?

[knucklehead G]

I've been looking at videos of the Warwick Dark Lord tuned F#BEA, and planning a DIY build with the same tuning. Currently I'm running just 200W into a 115 cab.. I don't need a 1500W death cab here, I'd be hooking up a 500W @ 4ohm GK head into it.

The issue I seem to see most often is the F# sounds horrid through most amps. The video on Youtube with the guy playing through the Eden 112 combo comes to mind.

Basson is out, as I can't be hefting a 150lb 210 cab around with me all the time.


Besides them, what should be on the list to check out? What do you guys use? A DIY cab is also an option, I'm fairly comfortable with tools. For the moment, lets skip budget so I can see what I'm looking for. If it rocks but its too expensive, I could always try and build my own.

[baron665]

8x10's are popular. But I would suggest a pair of 15's. Since you don't want to be hauling around too much weight, I would also suggest 2 cabs instead of one. A pair of these would be nice http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend....orn?sku=423665 Weighing at 32 pounds each.

[YoMomma]

@Barron: That GK looks like a winnah! Thanks for the link.

[Alexander Eddy]

Originally Posted by knucklehead G

I've been looking at videos of the Warwick Dark Lord tuned F#BEA, and planning a DIY build with the same tuning. Currently I'm running just 200W into a 115 cab.. I don't need a 1500W death cab here, I'd be hooking up a 500W @ 4ohm GK head into it.

The issue I seem to see most often is the F# sounds horrid through most amps. The video on Youtube with the guy playing through the Eden 112 combo comes to mind.

Basson is out, as I can't be hefting a 150lb 210 cab around with me all the time.


Besides them, what should be on the list to check out? What do you guys use? A DIY cab is also an option, I'm fairly comfortable with tools. For the moment, lets skip budget so I can see what I'm looking for. If it rocks but its too expensive, I could always try and build my own.

I have 3 f# basses and a c# in the works. DO NOT get caught up in the "my f# is 22hz, therefore I need a cab that goes that low" mindset. You do not. I'm sure the likes of Jauqo X-III will chime in here, and tell you otherwise, but you really need to produce the freq twice that of your lowest note. ~40hz in the case of an f#.
Probably of no help, but I'd be aiming for a 40hz freq response (I build my own cabs)

[AlexanderB]

Low frequencies call for lots of amplification power and speaker capacity for clean reproduction. Not debating whether you need to fully reproduce the fundamentals, you still look at 3-5 times the capacity of a "normal" bass rig to give the equal "loudness to the ear" for your lower range.

Not an opinion, but a fact. (Look up Fletcher Munson loudness curve.)

A guitar / bass analogy:
In a band situation, a 200W / 410 bass rig is a decent match to 50W / 12" guitar combo to reproduce a lower octave at similar "loudness". Going still one octave lower you need in the range of 1000W and proper speakers to appear as loud and "full sounding" as the guitar or a normal bass / bass rig to the audience.

/Alexander

[KratosNL]

I've been looking into this as well and i think you're going to need a seperate ss power amp to get enough watts. I just don't know squat about seperate power amps, so does anyone know what would be a good one for this purpose?

[JAUQO III-X]

My main rig and has been for years is a single Ashdown 410 cab, some times 2 Ashdown 410's and some time one Ashdown 410 with an Ashdown 210 on top. And my amp is a Ashdown EVO II series 550 head.



On occasion I will use a Thunderfunk 750 with a Thunderfunk 610 cab.


I also use a Basson 510 with a Demeter pre with at least a 2000 watt power amp.




I'm speaking from hands on experience, one does not need an elaborate, super expensive rig to get a nice pronounced low F#. that starts with the quality of your strings and instrument.


And my lowest open string is a low C#.










I'm an Ashdown,Thunderfunk, Basson endorser.

[AlexanderB]

"one does not need an elaborate, super expensive rig to get a nice pronounced low F#."

+1
Power amps are cheap nowadays, and speakers (drivers) relatively inexpensive, too.

But one needs a large speaker displacement ("air-moving capacity"), a cabinet designed to go deeper in the bass and plenty of amp power to "push that air".

/Alexander

[RNV]

I too downtune, mainly Drop C but I've gone lower, and I am very pleased with my BRX410 from Carvin.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/product...uct=BRX10.4NEO

Do not over look this underestimated beast of a cab. I'm throwing 1500W at it, not full volume, and the cab asks for more. Great cab, great return policy, great price, made in USA, so it can't hurt to try.

[AlexanderB]

Basically any PA amp will get the job done far better than commercial bass amps. You will have pay a bit extra for some brands (like Crest, QSC, LabGruppen, Powersoft etc) and also e bit more to get low weight amps. Ergo, a low weight QSC will cost you more than a Peavey boat anchor.
Generally the amps sound very similar, much more so than speakers by a factor of 100 or so. Only you can decide what it is worth to carry less heavy gear.

/Alexander

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by KratosNL

I've been looking into this as well and i think you're going to need a seperate ss power amp to get enough watts. I just don't know squat about seperate power amps, so does anyone know what would be a good one for this purpose?

When I've bench tested PA-oriented power amps in the past, they've all been essentially flat down to between 10 and 20 Hz. So was the power amp section of my little SWR Studio 220 bass head, for that matter...

If you go with a lead sled, the power amplifier should be the least of your worries. Speakers are where you'll run into trouble with physics.

The latest SMPS and Class D lightweight amps might be a different case, as low pass filters seem to be necessary (or at least popular) in that world.

[steve_rolfeca]

[quote=JAUQO III-X;9751707]I'm speaking from hands on experience, one does not need an elaborate, super expensive rig to get a nice pronounced low F#. that starts with the quality of your strings and instrument.

And my lowest open string is a low C#.
[quote]

My response to this and similar comments, especially from people who are using conventional single 15, 4*10 or 8*10 cabs, is that we are clearly not all talking about the same thing.

It's true that our ears can pick up just the upper harmonics of a low note, and "fill in" the fundamental. That's why compact hi-fi speakers don't make us run screaming from the room, and it applies to bass amplification as well.

I have a Bose L1 system that has a fairly sharp electronic HPF set at 38Hz. Armed with a non-Bose sub, it doesn't sound bad with a 5-string bass, even though it can't reproduce any fundamentals below a normal low E. Low B's from my 5-string actually sound quite good on that system.

But at the frequencies we are talking about, sounding good is not the same thing as FEELING good. When I run my 5 string through a properly powered Acme Low B stack, there's an extra solidity, and a little extra pitch definition on a low C at the first fret, that I don't get with the Bose. And I certainly don't get it from an SWR Goliath, or an SVT cab...

It's not just me that notices the difference when the fundamental is present. I've had non-musos comment on it, and that's why I don't buy all this stuff about getting a "nice pronounced low F#" out of a standard-issue bass guitar cabinet.

Pitch definition is the issue that I have the most trouble with. A lot of commercial 2*10's and 4*10's that claim a supposed 40-14K bandpass or thereabouts, are already running out of steam at 60Hz, and in some cases, even higher.

One of my pet beefs about those cabs, is the lack of pitch definition they provide between the low E, F and F# on a 4-string bass. It was a huge relief to me when I got into extended range amplification to go with my extended-range basses, and finally got a REALLY tight-sounding response at the lower end of the 4th string.

Doesn't really build my confidence that anyone's getting good pitch definition as much as a major 7th below the bottom string on my regular-tuned fiver. We're talking, what, around 15 or 16Hz?

Please understand that I'm not dissing downtuned basses, or arguing that low F#'s sound like crap. I agree that you would certainly get a different-sounding F# on a downtuned ER bass, with a different harmonic distribution than the F# on the E string. It probably sounds good in some contexts, and is musically useful to you.

But unless you're using some kind of huge industrial-strength, earthquake-quality sub stack, it's actually just a "harmonically re-distributed" regular F#, and not truly a low F#. Not even in your wildest dreams.

[JAUQO III-X]

Well to be honest no disrespect to the none believers but I really could care less about those who think that I am not hearing a well pronounced low F#. I live eat and breath in the low frequency zone and have been for many years. I am on stage and when I'm done performing no one has ever said "you know that low C# was not a true C#". They usually want to know how am I able to get clears so low and even. The bass players and the none bass players are blown away by what they are hearing(not my playing).

I have used my sub contra basses live and in the studio and my main focus is always clarity.


During sound check if there are some people around to witness the low frequencies of my sub contra basses they are frozen in awe from the clarity.


I remember years ago I was on the phone with Bill Dickens and I told him to take a listen to my open low C# string, he was blown away and he was even more blown away when I told him that I was playing through a Ashdown 210 500 watt combo.

[Metal Matt]

I have my Epiphone Thunderbird tuned F#BEA. My full rig is in my sig, which I haven't heard this note through, but my "small" rig is my Sunn Concert Bass, and Sunn Concert Slave into an Earth 2x15 and Acoustic 2x15 and it sounds great. A measly 400 watts into 4 15's. All gear from the 70's. I have a set of Circle K strings on the bass, (gauges 182, 136, 100, and 76) which are very flexible given their size and they have a ton of harmonic content which is important to hearing such low notes clearly.

And I'm with Jauqo on this, I can definitely HEAR the fundamental of the low F#. In my short experience with this tuning, I'd say the fundamental down that low is felt more than heard. Doesn't mean it's not there, and that you should only strive for the second harmonic. When you have the right strings and feel the difference, your attitude towards it changes.

Under and around 20hz, sound doesn't just disappear, but the human ability to recognize it as a sound does. What happens is we begin sensing the notes more physically. While I can hear the low F# which is something like 23hz, I sense it more physically, vibrations in my body, and pressure on my eardrums while not sensing an equally loud sound. The fundamental is very strong because I'm using appropriate sized strings for the tuning. The reason it's not heard as much as felt has everything to do with how the brain interprets low frequencies.

[MAMMOTHvolume]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Well to be honest no disrespect to the none believers but I really could care less about those who think that I am not hearing a well pronounced low F#. I live eat and breath in the low frequency zone and have been for many years. I am on stage and when I'm done performing no one has ever said "you know that low C# was not a true C#". They usually want to know how am I able to get clears so low and even. The bass players and the none bass players are blown away by what they are hearing(not my playing).

I have used my sub contra basses live and in the studio and my main focus is always clarity.


During sound check if there are some people around to witness the low frequencies of my sub contra basses they are frozen in awe from the clarity.


I remember years ago I was on the phone with Bill Dickens and I told him to take a listen to my open low C# string, he was blown away and he was even more blown away when I told him that I was playing through a Ashdown 210 500 watt combo.

can't imagine it got very loud though.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by MAMMOTHvolume

can't imagine it got very loud though.

No not the 210 combo, but loud enough to let one know that it really doesn't take much.

[Josh Pelican]

I had a bass strung F#BEADG and I used a Traynor DB800H and an Ampeg SVT810E. Sounded decent and I played quite a few shows like this.

I would prefer a 610 and a 215, but that's just me! I sold the Traynor and have two Ampeg heads now. It sounded better, but now I have the bass set up for G#/Ab standard. Sounds real nice.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I remember years ago I was on the phone with Bill Dickens and I told him to take a listen to my open low C# string, he was blown away and he was even more blown away when I told him that I was playing through a Ashdown 210 500 watt combo.

I'm a former 'phone company technician, and telephone lines are limited to about 300Hz on the low end. All Mr. Dickens could have heard, was upper harmonics...

I'm gonna back off, and leave this thread alone now.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

All Mr. Dickens could have heard, was upper harmonics...

What ever he heard he liked the clarity in regards to a open bass string lower than the now standard low B.

[knucklehead G]

I had been planning on using a GK MB head, so that is class D, would I need to run something else into it first?


So a lot of people are saying 15s, or PA cabs which seem to usually be 15s. That's really helpful, and I'll check into those GK MBE cabs.


Also, not sure if they were just really popular or what, but a few Peavey cabs with 18" Black Widows in them pop up on Craigslist here from time to time.. Would 18" be better? Two 118s? The Peaveys were running about 110lbs each and I can't think of any currently produced 118 cabs but I could build some. Those 215s and 810s look awesome but I can't justify that size of cab, I'd need a new car.