When the RS212 didn't "cut it" alone...

[Sparks55]

Hi. My name is Mark, and I'm a TC Electronic-holic. OK, I admit it. And the honeymoon definitely isn't over. But...yesterday's gig was definitely an eye-opener.

I had been spoiled mixing and matching various combinations of RS212, RS2120 and an RS112 cabinets for our rock/blues cover band. Never before have I had a problem correctly guessing how much cabinet I needed for the RH450 to cut the gig. Normal outdoor gigs have been great using the RS212 alone for small gigs, and the RS212 + RS112 for large venues.

Yesterday we opened with two sets for a regional touring hard rock act (that will remain nameless) on an outdoor stage we had played before (good solid stage on a parking lot, backed by a brick wall). We are not a loud band on stage. The headliner was bringing their full PA and crew and would also be mixing us. Having been mixing the last 28 years, I new their reputation as being very loud and that they had in-ears plus 6 independent wedge mixes on stage. I felt comfortable that the gig would be easy.

There was a chance of violent showers and since we got drenched after 7 songs the day before (yup, an hour blow drying my gear after the gig!). I figured all I would need is the RS212 and less gear is better when it rains. I was dead wrong.

The RS212 has been and would have been fine for a "normal" large system outdoors. But these guys brought 4 B52 18" W-bins, 4 B52 1,000W powered 2x15s, and a couple of 2-inch horns. This "DJ" system was so sub heavy that it turned my stomach on stage. It was EQ'd with the typical smiley face DJ curve, too. Even though the stage was only 20 feet wide, I couldn't hear anything clearly except the snare and cymbals. Everything else was mud.

I kept turning up the RH450 and still had headroom to spare but I just couldn't hear myself. Just more noise from about 80hz to 300hz. Dialed out the lows, peaked the mids to try to find a sweet spot. Upped the highs. Couldn't even get a clean thump to groove with. Felt like crap, and being a new player, I played like crap. The whole band was having trouble hearing and the sound guy wore his earplugs the entire time.

Our crowd said that we sounded good out front and that everything was there, so it was just the stage. Moral of the story: from now on, if I don't know what we are up against I am bringing the Rs212 + RS210. I never want to feel like that again!

Mark

[Rick Auricchio]

I wouldn't worry too much. You were up against a terrible wall of mud because of the subs.

[Codger]

It seems unfortunate that in order to hear yourself you need even more stage volume, which will add to to the din and roar. When the stage volume gets so loud that no one can hear you have some choices:

1. Turn down the stage volume - nice idea but difficult to do in practice. It would probably still be too loud to prevent hearing damage.
2. Use either in-ears or full coverage phones with a dedicated monitor mix - I sort of like this one best. For a long time I used David-Clark DC/100s.
3. 30dB ear plugs - the one I usually go with. I wish I had used them for the first twenty years or so. It really does cut down the rumble and mud. Raise the mids a bit for your stage amp - should help you hear what you are playing.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Sparks55

Hi. My name is Mark, and I'm a TC Electronic-holic.

Hi Mark. Welcome to group...

Seriously, I don't think there's much you could have done by tweaking your stage rig. The problems lie in the monitor system - such as it was. And that was under control of the sound engineer.

Didn't see any mention of a sound check. If you didn't do one, that might have nipped the problem in the bud. If you did do a sound check, it wasn't as effective as it should have been.

Originally Posted by Sparks55

The RS212 has been and would have been fine for a "normal" large system outdoors. But these guys brought 4 B52 18" W-bins, 4 B52 1,000W powered 2x15s, and a couple of 2-inch horns. This "DJ" system was so sub heavy that it turned my stomach on stage.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't that stuff be out in front of the stage, facing the audience? If so, wouldn't it be mostly out of earshot for the band? Meaning that it wouldn't interfere much, if at all, with the stage mix?

Thoughts?

MM

[bassmanjla]

try a plexiglass hinged panel arranged in a "v" behind the 212. it's rear ported, so a lot of low end goes out that way. if you place the panel correctly, it will reflect and seemingly amplify those waves. not something to do indoors, but really works nicely when playing outdoor shows.

[Rick Auricchio]

There's tons of booming bass from the backs of cabinets, especially subs.

Why do sound guys think they needs tons of sub-bass? I suppose it's the same reason they feel the drums should be the loudest thing in the house.

[Sparks55]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Hi Mark. Welcome to group...

Seriously, I don't think there's much you could have done by tweaking your stage rig. The problems lie in the monitor system - such as it was. And that was under control of the sound engineer.

Didn't see any mention of a sound check. If you didn't do one, that might have nipped the problem in the bud. If you did do a sound check, it wasn't as effective as it should have been.



Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't that stuff be out in front of the stage, facing the audience? If so, wouldn't it be mostly out of earshot for the band? Meaning that it wouldn't interfere much, if at all, with the stage mix?

Thoughts?

MM

Since we weren't the headliner we only get a brief level check and quick check of the monitors. At least he wasn't obvious about squashing us out front so his band would look better (although he let their tour manager/head roadie take over the mix).

Yes, what I referred to as a "normal" system wouldn't muck up the stage so much. Even the loadest stages indoors never gave me this much backwave. I've had 6 EAW subs crossed at 80Hz directly under a wood stage where I was mixing monitors and never had any trouble. The B52 W-bins put out an amazing amount of sub freqs behind them, even though they were sitting on the pavement and isolated from the stage. Definitely designed for high volume pre-recorded dance music. I also believe that the other cabinets were passively bi-amped making the lows go to 2-18s and 2-15s per side and the mids carried by another 2-15s up to at least 1k. Not a great way to go for live sound at all.

Originally Posted by bassmanjla

try a plexiglass hinged panel arranged in a "v" behind the 212. it's rear ported, so a lot of low end goes out that way. if you place the panel correctly, it will reflect and seemingly amplify those waves. not something to do indoors, but really works nicely when playing outdoor shows.

I had the rear brick wall to play with and additional headroom on the amp. Out of frustration I tried varying distances and angles from the wall to no avail, although the drummer heard me fine over his 3-way PA/monitor. I would up pretty much standing right in front of my rig and facing the drummer just to lock in. I didn't have to play hard or play louder. Could still use a light touch but I had no idea how I sounded. Playing "blind" like that I pretty much just made sure I was locked-in with the drummer and covered the expected low end parts. I truly believe the RS210 on top of the RS212 would have given me the clarity I needed to really play. Plus, it sure didn't help much that the piano player is tw0-fisted and can't play without heavy octaves in her left hand!

Mark

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

<SNIP>Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't that stuff be out in front of the stage, facing the audience? If so, wouldn't it be mostly out of earshot for the band? Meaning that it wouldn't interfere much, if at all, with the stage mix?

Thoughts?

MM

In my experience, NO. Low frequencies are omnidirectional, and when there's a disproportionate amount of sub-woofer in the mix, it can be incredibly difficult to hear things clearly on stage, especially when on-stage volume is also too high.

I've played venues where the sound wasn't *bad* out in the audience, but on stage all I could hear was the rumbling of the subs. If I can elevate or tilt my cab so it's aimed toward my ears, it can help, but sometimes there's not much you can do.

Unfortuntately, when the soundman's allegiances are to the headliner, he's not likely to change things to accommodate an opener unless you're very lucky.

[Sparks55]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

In my experience, NO. Low frequencies are omnidirectional, and when there's a disproportionate amount of sub-woofer in the mix, it can be incredibly difficult to hear things clearly on stage, especially when on-stage volume is also too high.

I've played venues where the sound wasn't *bad* out in the audience, but on stage all I could hear was the rumbling of the subs. If I can elevate or tilt my cab so it's aimed toward my ears, it can help, but sometimes there's not much you can do.

Unfortuntately, when the soundman's allegiances are to the headliner, he's not likely to change things to accommodate an opener unless you're very lucky.

Yup. Exactly what I was typing above! Funny thing is that when I do the mixing for an opening act, i want them to sound great so that the headliner can hear them out front and believe that they will only sound better. (Of course, that assumes the headliner is a better band! .

[JimmyM]

been there, done that. i've had subs drown me out with an 810e cranked pretty loud before so it wasn't your rig alone. really, all you can do is eq out almost all the low end, and tilt your cab more toward your head or use a taller stack. this is where a pre-eq di and being flexible comes in handy

[Sparks55]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

been there, done that. I've had subs drown me out with an 810e cranked pretty loud before so it wasn't your rig alone. really, all you can do is eq out almost all the low end, and tilt your cab more toward your head or use a taller stack. this is where a pre-eq di and being flexible comes in handy

Flexibility plus chops and experience, two things I haven't earned yet! Between Friday and Sat gigs, 1 sound guy and 2 bass players came up to me and complemented me on my sound. True testament to the quality of the RH450 direct out, I'd say.

Mark

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Sparks55

Yup. Exactly what I was typing above! Funny thing is that when I do the mixing for an opening act, i want them to sound great so that the headliner can hear them out front and believe that they will only sound better. (Of course, that assumes the headliner is a better band! .

you would be surprised how many headline bands are totally insecure about that. i once saw the police in 1980, and the soundman totally gave the opening band the shaft. i mean he stuck a shiv in their backs. made them sound really weak. i don't get it...if the opening band sounds great, that just makes the headliners look smart for picking them to open.

[Blues Bass 2]

Me too . Sometimes at some gigs the subs just drown out every thing down low . Yes they are omnidirectional and even doing what Jimmy says once in a while nothing helps . I hate gigs like that where I can't hear a thing I'm playing . Luckily those gigs are rare .

[Sparks55]

Originally Posted by Blues Bass 2

Me too . Sometimes at some gigs the subs just drown out every thing down low . Yes they are omnidirectional and even doing what Jimmy says once in a while nothing helps . I hate gigs like that where I can't hear a thing I'm playing . Luckily those gigs are rare .

I sure hope they are rare. It sucks enough being a beginner, but I had zero confidence on this gig. Gotta log a lot more hours in the wood shed.

Mark

[bassmanjla]

i saw metallica last year with the sword and lamb of god. what the sound man did to them was a travesty. guess who's sound was perfect though?

OP, do you have a wireless?? if so, the next time this happens, just go play out in the crowd.

if not, i recommend the new line 6 g50's super good wireless's. spendy, but worth it.

[Sparks55]

Yeah, I was thinking this morning about what I could sell on eBay to get the $400 for a G50. I could really use one anyway because I mix my band from stage while playing most of the time. you don't realize how short 25' really is until you want to walk out front....

Mark

[I Forget]

The problem could have been related to that brick wall behind you. You might have been standing in the boom zone where the reflections from the subs off the wall are in phase with the sound coming directly from them. Might well have sounded fine out front.

While all that's happening your rig could have been out of phase with that wall of mud, just because of it's location, making it harder to hear. It would have been interesting to ask the sound guy to reverse the phase on the bass channel on the desk to see if that helped the stage sound. Alternatively you could make yourself a phase reversal lead (swap pins 2&3) for your di so you can do it yourself.

[bassmanjla]

nice thoughts Forget, i didn't even think about that, but very true points.

[Sparks55]

Originally Posted by I Forget

The problem could have been related to that brick wall behind you. You might have been standing in the boom zone where the reflections from the subs off the wall are in phase with the sound coming directly from them. Might well have sounded fine out front.

While all that's happening your rig could have been out of phase with that wall of mud, just because of it's location, making it harder to hear. It would have been interesting to ask the sound guy to reverse the phase on the bass channel on the desk to see if that helped the stage sound. Alternatively you could make yourself a phase reversal lead (swap pins 2&3) for your di so you can do it yourself.

Good suggestions. If only the console had a phase switch on each strip! The stage was about 12 feet deep. It was bad back by the drummer and when I walked to the front edge. Very frustrating. I'll make up a short cable to keep in my bag of tricks. Thanks for the idea.

Mark

[I Forget]

If the console didn't have phase switches I wonder did they have a gate for the kick? From your description of the other band I would guess their engineer would have your kick loud & proud in the mix. That's a wash of lows in the subs if there's no gate. No so easy for the bass player to do something about tho!