Where are my lows?

ZachM · #1 09-09-2011, 12:58 PM

Hey everyone,

I thought I'd ask for some advice about live rig / pa interaction. There's probably been a few different threads that have touched on this but I haven't found anything that quite solves my problem.

Anyway, my situation is this: my band is a five piece country/rock band that tours quite a bit. About half of our shows are done with house pa's or sound companies + nice stages, and the other half we do our own sound with a small powered pa, which is often done on poor, sometimes hollow stages. It's a decent pa for it's size, but essentially I still need to carry a decent amount of sound with my rig.

The rig I'm using is a Reeves custom 225 with an Ampeg 810.

The issue I'm having is this: up close to about ten feet away, my amp sounds big and fat. Totally happy with my tone in this range. But as I start walking away from my rig and into the crowd area, the sound starts getting very thin, like the bottom octave and a half kinda just disappears.

I know proximity effect probably has something to do with it but it seems like it shouldn't be that extreme. Is the stage robbing my sound by vibrating, as often happens on the hollow/portable stages? Perhaps it's a dispersion issue with the 810? I just don't feel like I should be having as much low end loss as I am, and I'm not really sure how to fix it.

It should also be said, that the disappearance of the lows is happening without the pa being on, so it's not a phase issue between the pa and the amp.

At any rate, it's something I need to try and sort out with my rig if possible... I know that a bigger pa is the only true solution, but it's not really gonna be in the cards to get a larger system. It wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't a necessity for me to reinforce our pa with my amp.

If anyone could shed some light on this problem it'd be much appreciated!

rockstarbassist · #2 09-09-2011, 01:06 PM

I dunno man, sounds pretty common to me.

Further away you get, the less awesome your tone sounds. The bass is gonna disperse instead of kick you in the butt, and you'll more or less mix in with everyone else.
I have a moderately bassy tone and when I jump off stage and go listen to the band mix w/out the PA on, I lose a lot of bass. But that's why you (hopefully) have subs support to balance that out.

You could have something wrong but it doesn't seem like it.

JimmyM · #3 09-09-2011, 01:30 PM

Ya, cabs don't get louder the further you get away

And dispersion issues won't effect the lows.

What you need to do is on gigs where your rig is to carry the house is go out into the house and listen, and adjust your rig accordingly. If it doesn't sound quite right onstage, that's cool because it will be awesome in the house.

ZachM · #4 09-09-2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Ya, cabs don't get louder the further you get away

And dispersion issues won't effect the lows.

What you need to do is on gigs where your rig is to carry the house is go out into the house and listen, and adjust your rig accordingly. If it doesn't sound quite right onstage, that's cool because it will be awesome in the house.

Thanks for the replies guys! Obviously my cab will be quieter out in the room, and I know that dispersion doesn't have anything to do with the lows really, but it just seems like the bottom 100hz or so just gets chopped off in comparison to the rest of the spectrum.

I know there is a natural loss of sound intensity over distance, but I'm wondering if the stage vibration is robbing my cab of power in the lows. Could this be happening, and could I fix that with a gramma pad or something?

I guess part of what I'm asking is also, why don't subwoofers / pa speakers seem to have this issue as much as my rig does?

Lowbrow · #5 09-09-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What you need to do is on gigs where your rig is to carry the house is go out into the house and listen, and adjust your rig accordingly. If it doesn't sound quite right onstage, that's cool because it will be awesome in the house.

+1, and if needed bump the 100hz!

rockstarbassist · #6 09-09-2011, 01:52 PM

Well aren't the SVT810's notorious for the severe 100hz and under drop off? Or around there, anyway?
Also IME when the cab is coupled to the ground, you get more "oomph", not less. I have casters on both of my 212 cabs so there's always that separation but I'm pretty sure I could get a good bit more bottom end if I laid them on the floor. The GRAMMA is/was designed I'm pretty sure to do the opposite of what you want.

For the last part, it's all about design and construction. Subs and PA are meant for long-throw, high-volume stuff whereas your cab isn't designed to be a loudspeaker and sound rad at 100' vs 100".

But the same kinda thing happens w/ PA's too- ever been to an outdoor show and sat out on the lawn? You hear mostly "click" from the bass and kick vs the thump in your chest.

JimmyM · #7 09-09-2011, 01:52 PM

Nah, it's not the stage robbing you of that...just a question of room reflections doing what they do. A throw rug in front of your cab will do as much as a Gramma pad, BTW.

As for why subs don't do that...it's because all they have to do is the lows while a bass cab is doing full range, so it can concentrate on just the lows.

One thing you might want to do is check out the Reeves 225 article at www.bassgearmag.com . I forget which issue it's in but it's either 1 or 2. They show you the EQ and how it works and how to get the best out of it.

babebambi · #8 09-09-2011, 02:33 PM

check the phase between the 810 and the house sub

ZachM · #9 09-09-2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babebambi

check the phase between the 810 and the house sub

I was actually thinking about getting one of those Little Labs IBP phase tools to align the phase of my cab to the PA.

But otherwise then, I'm getting the sense that the issues I'm having are just kinda the Way It Is, and not related to anything abnormal. I just thought the 810 threw a little more into the room than it apparently does, even though I know it rolls off a little higher than some cabs.

I suppose my only hope then, is to try and talk the boss into purchasing more powerful subs...

ZachM · #10 09-09-2011, 02:57 PM

Although, maybe this is my cue to pull the trigger on a parametric eq and a fEarful 1515/66...

Russell L · #11 09-09-2011, 03:06 PM

Hi, Zach. Maybe it's that you are standing in the wrong place. If you went a little further out perhaps it would begin to sound better. I don't know that for sure, though. But, once at a jam when folks were using my bass through my little Markbass 121H combo I was surprised to find that it sounded great out in the house, no PA support. It was ok onstage, too, where I was standing, but not perfect, being as I had nothing to elevate it onto. But, by dang, the thing sounded great everywhere out in the room. I'm talking about 30-50 feet away. I was impressed, considering its diminutive size. Anyway, get someone to play your bass like you do and take a walk out there and see. I might be wrong, but I might be right, too. Good luck, pal.

stiles72 · #12 09-09-2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What you need to do is on gigs where your rig is to carry the house is go out into the house and listen, and adjust your rig accordingly. If it doesn't sound quite right onstage, that's cool because it will be awesome in the house.

+1 I play through 2x15 Ampeg fridges, and for a lot of our smaller shows we just run sound from stage. I'll set my rig to carry the low end out front moreso than based on what I want or need up close onstage. I'm used to listening to my rig that way - knowing that it's throwing a lot further out. But a lot of guys who come up and jam on it complain they can't hear it or that it doesnt sound right, even though out front it's right on.

ZachM · #13 09-09-2011, 03:31 PM

Thanks for the reply Russell. I've seen that happen at other places too, which is why I'm so surprised that I'm having this much trouble considering the amount of firepower I have on tap with my rig... It's not exactly a small setup!

staindbass · #14 09-09-2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babebambi

check the phase between the 810 and the house sub

+1 stand where the bass gets tin and flip the phase on the mixing board to see if it helps.

Mr. Foxen · #15 09-09-2011, 06:08 PM

Does the place you are experiencing it have a bare flat ceiling, or a flat hard wall behind your rig. As you move out, you could be at the distance the reflection from the back wall cancels out your lows.

John Wentzien · #16 09-09-2011, 06:15 PM

I always had to stand kinda to the side of a fridge to get the full brunt of it onstage...just cock it to the side a little..you will hear it...

ZachM · #17 09-09-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Does the place you are experiencing it have a bare flat ceiling, or a flat hard wall behind your rig. As you move out, you could be at the distance the reflection from the back wall cancels out your lows.

This time of the year we tend to do a lot of outdoor events, like colleges, air shows, fairs, etc. Yesterday the stage was one of those portable, foldable leg stages a few feet off the ground with nothing around the cab whatsoever - no walls or anything as it was set up in an open area. As I was moving away from the cab, it fairly steadily dropped off lows.

I'm still wondering if stage vibration is one of the culprits, like perhaps the stage is soaking up energy from the driver motion because the stage itself is not that secure. Yesterday's certainly vibrated a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

I always had to stand kinda to the side of a fridge to get the full brunt of it onstage...just cock it to the side a little..you will hear it...

I tend to stand to side or the other as well... But I never have problems hearing my rig nice and full anywhere onstage, just from the audience perspective.

Again, I know that at the end of the day I'm asking a lot of my rig, as it was not really designed to push at pa levels, but this band is not gonna buy extra subs for the sake of my tone, so I'm turning to y'all!

I have a feeling it's probably natural low end roll-off that happens over distance, but is there a chance to maybe the speakers in my rig would be having phasing issues that only become apparent at a greater distance? (btw, all these issues are happening with my rig with the PA off, so those particular problems are not involved)

Mr. Foxen · #18 09-09-2011, 06:59 PM

Might be the Fletcher-Munson curve thing where as you move away and lose volume, it alters you perception of tonal balance (basically, your ear/brain thinks louder is better).

**peledog** · #19 09-09-2011, 07:00 PM

If you have side fills...yeah, then things get even trickier.. lol. Don't be afraid to boost the mids for your 'stage sound'. The PA will carry everything else.

will33 · #20 09-09-2011, 07:33 PM

It's natural to lose a good bit of lows outdoors, especially out in the open/no back wall. I'd check the link to the reeves eq, see if there's anything you could do there, also give your cab a quick battery test just to be sure all the drivers are in phase and working.

Otherwise, it may be just the way it is. Lows aren't directional like mids and highs. They're not focused out front like the rest of the frequencies. You're sending as much lows behind the stage as you are in front of it. The mids and highs are all being directed towards the audience.