where's the amp/preamp fan club?

u84six · #1 08-03-2011, 05:04 PM

As I've been researching new gear, I'm starting to think that buying a really powerful and clean amp is the way to go. With a really high powered amp, it will enable to me to build an arsenal of preamps rather than be stuck with the same head. Some inexpensive preamps sound really good! Is this flawed logic? I don't understand why it's not incredibly popular for bassists and guitarists. Or is it? I know some guitarists/bassist prefer all tube, and I respect that. But to be able to mix and match different preamps just seems like a really cool way to roll!

What amazes me is the price of some of these amps.

Crown XTi 2000: $379 or less. Bridged 4ohm 2000W
Behringer Europower EP2000: Bridged 4ohm 2000W
Peavey IPR3000: Bridged 4ohm 3000W!

And all of these a very lightweight. You could slap a sansamp or any kind of pre in front of these babies and drown out your drummer with your volume set on 2!

Why don't I see people talk about this more often. Am I missing something? I do admit that I am not equipment savvy whatsoever. So why would someone buy something like a Genz Benz or a MarkBass when they can simply make their own crazy sounding rig with a mixed set of preamps?

ric3xrt · #2 08-03-2011, 08:20 PM

Not sure about others, but for me I like the added verstility a preamp/amp combo gives .
I do see a lot of Preamp Poweramp setups out there. have 3 students who run Sansamp into Stewart power amps, but me I stick with the Head/preamp

jungleheat · #3 08-03-2011, 09:58 PM

There can be such a thing as "too much power". 2000W is an assload of juice. Headroom can be great to have for sure, but unless you're playing big venues regularly, you won't even be close to tapping into that amount of it. So then you'd be way down in the opposite end of the volume spectrum where most amps get extremely touchy and you still need to get above the noise floor of the amp to get good tone.

Not to mention, where are you going to find bass cabs that can withstand 2kW? Sure you can just keep the volume down, but now you're limiting your ability to even tap into that headroom and defeating the purpose.

Having said that, the basic premise of cheap power amp and variety of preamps isn't bad at all. But I'd look at something more in the 400-1000W range. Not that you have to match the amp power exactly to the cabs, but it's usually prudent to be in the ballpark, unless you have good volume discipline (most people dont, especially with a 2kW amp).

Maybe it's because I grew up around hifi stuff (McIntosh, etc...) and am mainly a guitar player, but I know how much a watt is worth. To me, watts mostly equal headroom and "snap" (listening to a very low distortion 300W amp into a pair of amazing electrostatics playing a perfectly recorded cd is a thing of beauty) and the size and number of speakers is going to be a huge component in volume. So to me at least, having anything more than about 400W for individual onstage amplification in a typical club setting is way overkill.

So if I were you, I would get a higher quality lower wattage amp over a lower quality higher wattage amp of the same price. You want to look at distortion ratings, but also how well things are built, etc...

Actually, for my main guitar setup, I'm gradually building a pre/power amp stereo rig. I have a Carvin Quad X Amp (4 channel all tube preamp with a bunch of cool features), which for right now I run into the stereo FX loop of a Roland JC120. But I plan on getting a Mesa Fifty/Fifty (50W x2 all tube power amp), and 2 1x12 cabs. For a similar bass rig, I'd probably go with 2 SWR Bass 350s and 2 Mesa or SWR 1x15s.

Joe Louvar · #4 08-03-2011, 10:01 PM

I have gas for the new Axe-Fx II.

JimmyM · #5 08-03-2011, 10:03 PM

I agree that a really powerful and clean amp is the way to go...that's why I never gig with less than 25w at my disposal.

Hey, horses for courses...I would never use that much wattage, and I like the convenience of heads. But a pre/power rig is perfectly legit and does give you the benefits you mention.

Dark Barn · #6 08-04-2011, 12:08 AM

The TB clubs are predominantly brand identity centered. Partly for practical reasons; sharing settings, troubleshooting and such. Partly to satisfy recursive brand loyalty and social inclusion. As a rallying flag the Preamp/Power Amp Fan Club just doesn't have a good hook. Look to the other successful un-branded mega threads for inspiration; Rigs of Doom, Mini Rigs of Doom, and Janky-A Rigs of Doom. Now you have the tool to build and market a successful fan club for preamps/power amps.

u84six · #7 08-04-2011, 10:02 AM

Actually, the examples I used was merely just to point out that you can get a lot of power cheap. I do agree with some of you that you don't really need all that power. But the beauty of this setup is that I can try all the great preamps that come out without worrying about another bass head's sound getting in the way. The cleaner the power amp, the better. I'll use the gain on the preamp for some grit if I need it.

And I also like that the combined weight, even in a rack case, is pretty darn light.

BassmanPaul · #8 08-04-2011, 10:09 AM

Have you checked out the prices of bass pre-amps and mic strips?? They ain't all cheap. In many cases more than a head would cost.

An amp rated with all the power in the world isn't going to do you much good as there are only 1800VA - for the sake of simplicity let's call them watts - available from a standard mains socket. An amp cannot put out more than it can take in.

u84six · #9 08-04-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

Have you checked out the prices of bass pre-amps and mic strips?? They ain't all cheap. In many cases more than a head would cost.

An amp rated with all the power in the world isn't going to do you much good as there are only 1800VA - for the sake of simplicity let's call them watts - available from a standard mains socket. An amp cannot put out more than it can take in.

Well that's just it. The range is nice. You can go for high-end or not-so-high-end. More flexibility. I think for me, I will go for a fairly high-end power amp. Then start experimenting with not-so-expensive preamps like sansamp, markbass, aguilar, hartke, fishman, etc. They all make pretty decent low-cost solutions.

Passinwind · #10 08-04-2011, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

An amp cannot put out more than it can take in.

Of course it can.

u84six · #11 08-04-2011, 10:21 AM

And for my cab(s), I will look for something that leans towards sounding like stereo speaker rather than a "just for bass" design. e.g. Accurgroove has some amazing stuff.

u84six · #12 08-04-2011, 10:23 AM

A quick search on Amazon actually shows a pretty decent assortment of low-cost preamps:

Amazon.com: bass preamps: Musical Instruments

**IvanMike** · #13 08-04-2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jungleheat

blah blah blah..... I...am mainly a guitar player....blah blah blah

(Emphasis and Blah's mine)

NEVER say that on this site - now your opinions and knowledge are worth $0.02 or so...

Other than that, you were right on, but you just blew your credibility!

I'll echo what some others have said here - If you're going to go the preamp/poweramp route, (which I do) get good quality stuff. I like a lot of headroom, but clean and reliable power is worth more. It's also rare to actually use the full stated wattage of a poweramp that is 2 ohms stable, unless you're bridging it into a 4 ohm cab, in which case you don't need 4000 watts as that will exterminate most cabs.

**IvanMike** · #14 08-04-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u84six

A quick search on Amazon actually shows a pretty decent assortment of low-cost preamps:

Amazon.com: bass preamps: Musical Instruments

Not all of those will really give you a real line level signal - most are designed to be used as a stomp box in front of an amp head or preamp. That said, if you find something that works for you, go nuts.

runmikeyrun · #15 08-04-2011, 11:13 AM

I have both a pre/power setup and a head. Both are bulky, and heavy, and have advantages/disadvantages. I can't say I like one more than the other. I like them both in their own way. But, I DO like the flexibility I get from being able to change preamps, use a BBE sonic Max or rack EQ, etc. It is a nice feature. And while my QSC will put out 2400w in bridged mono, real world power is ~750w/channel into a 4 ohm cab. When I ran an ampeg 8x10 and a 2x15 live, the sound and volume level was incredible, and low notes on the A string would take your breath away. But, honestly, it wasn't necessary with any club with a PA (they always made me turn WAY down) and even at house shows playing with two guitarists it was just too much. So I downgraded cabs to 4x12s and it's still plenty.

I'm a firm believer in "rather have too much and not need it, than need it and not have enough" so if you are from that school a pre/power amp is the way to go. It's reassuring to know that no matter what kind of PA (or lack thereof) there is when you show up at a gig, you're always prepared.

BassmanPaul · #16 08-04-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Of course it can.

hmmm. More than 100% efficient! That's against the laws of physics.

u84six · #17 08-04-2011, 11:55 AM

I agree, Mikey. Especially for a bassist, I think we need to come prepared with extra power even if we don't use it. And I agree with other people that if you have too much, some cabs don't sound very well at low volume.

The flexibility to run several preamps is such a nice feature.

Now I need to determine which amp and cab(s) I'm going to buy. Ugh...

I know that some amps handle subwoofers better than others. Any recommendations of what to look for?

parapentep70 · #18 08-04-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

hmmm. More than 100% efficient! That's against the laws of physics.

Not really. Power amps (more specifically their power supplies) store energy for a few milliseconds. You can have 4kW peaks while burning on average less than 1kW from the mains. You can hear peak power, fuses and circuit breakers are sensitive to average power.

And in Europe, max power from standard sockets is 2200W (for some reason the usual rated power for hair driers, heaters, and a lot of other appliances).

Passinwind · #19 08-04-2011, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

hmmm. More than 100% efficient! That's against the laws of physics.

You know better.

chadds · #20 08-04-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IvanMike

Not all of those will really give you a real line level signal - most are designed to be used as a stomp box in front of an amp head or preamp. That said, if you find something that works for you, go nuts.

Let me echo. They have to put out enough voltage to drive the power amp properly. Nine volt batt power, no. AC cord possible. Save yourself the headaches and buy a dedicated bass pre. You'll end up there anyway. Used you can get a lot of tonal choices. Search here there are some great shootouts and personal reviews. They cover the gamut from Fender tone stack to pristine channel strip.
Enjoy!