Why do people even pay attention to the "specs?"

[somedumbguy]

All this talk about "watts" and program watts vs. RMS watts etc... I used to actually think it meant something. But here's the big secret: IT DOESN'T!


I've heard people say that GKs and Ampegs give more "honest" wattage ratings, and Behringer "inflates" their wattage ratings. It's all pointless.

Physics teaches that "Watts" are in units of Joules per second. A Joule is the one Newton (a measure of force) moving an object one meter. Here is a practical example: our body releases one joule of heat every hundredth of a second... at rest. Meaning, in just body heat, we are all running at "100 Watts."

When people say "I need to play heavy-metal-stoner-sludge-noise-rock, will my 300 Watt amp be enough." Don't respond with "you need at least a 900 Watt amp to keep up with two guitars...." This doesn't make sense, what he needs, is to listen to his amp, and let his ears decide.

Along the same vein, RMS does not mean an "average" of what your amp will put out. Without spending an hour on another physics lecture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square

Finally, Decibels. Decibels are NOT a measure of loudness. People say that doubling your wattage is only an increase of 3dB... which is actually true. But decibals are all logarithms. I don't have the energy to explain that clearly (and I'm not a teacher...) "Just a small 3dB increase" is actually VERY noticeable, so people that say "you can't tell the difference between those amps, it only has 150 more watts" are actually quite wrong.... for so many reasons.


Can we all just agree to use our ears when making suggestions, instead of just throwing out numbers?

And I know many of you swear by your "wattage" and go ahead flame away. I just don't want brand new people here thinking they need to just look at a few numbers and never use their ears... which should ALWAYS be the determining factor.

Edit:
Let me clarify something. Not all specs are inaccurate. I am mostly concerned about wattage. Also, knowing wattage can be a valuable tool when putting together a rig. Knowing how much wattage your amp has compared with your cab can be quite valuable in making a solid rig. However, when determining LOUDNESS, always trust your ears, not the numbers. Always.

[beelzelboss]

Sounds about right. That makes sense. Loudness has to do with a lot more things than just watts. My brothers 15 watt guitar amp sounds a lot louder than my 100 watt bass amp, and I know that has to do with the fact that the bigger sound waves take more energy, but nonetheless. It also has to do with speakers. How can a mesa walkabout scout, and only 12" be so much louder than my 15" speaker.

But oh, I have run into a predicament. The mesa is 300 watts, and mine is only 100. Care to explain how that works, and how the mesa doesn't sound all muddy at higher volumes. Please enlighten me.

[Kael]

I have one degree in engineering and another in mathematics. Your stances regarding watts, RMS (which is in fact a means of determining an average) and DECIBELS I find baffling.

Your basic premise that people should employ their ears is spot on. There is however, nothing wrong with employing the gray matter that lies between those ears when contemplating gear.

[steamthief]

Hey, teach, it's decibel.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

For an informed person the specs are the way to make an informed decision.

For an ignorant, well they'll learn eventually.

Decibel is the closest (most familiar) unit that can be used to measure sound pressure or loudness in laymans terms. The acoustical watts would be better, but that's long gone in loudspeaker advertizing.

Regards
Sam

[somedumbguy]

RMS is a method of determining an average, I was referring to the people (like myself a while ago) that thought RMS watts was how much my amp put out on average. Which is actually an oversimplification of things.

A watt is in joules/second.

And a 3dB increase in volume is quite noticeable.


I really don't see where my post was baffling?

[avenger7326]

correct me if im wrong but i think i read on here somewhere that 3db is the smallest increment of volume that the human ear can distinguish. I guess that means that you cant tell if something has gotten louder or softer until it has changed about 3db. i may be completely wrong and correct me if i am i just thought it was an interesting side note.

[Foz]

I want an amp with deciBALLS

[TortillaChip520]

Originally Posted by somedumbguy

Can we all just agree to use our ears when making suggestions, instead of just throwing out numbers?

Uhh, no.

How can you say that watts and decibals are completely irrelevant in the amp world? STATISTICALLY speaking, a lower watt amp is not going to be louder than a higher watt amp, and that is fact. You can't tell me there is no volume difference between a 4 watt amp and a 4,000 watt amp. What's pointless is to make an argument based on technicalities and semantics, when the only one who is so bothered by it is you.
I'm not trying to call you out or tell you that you're wrong, and people do make assumptions about those things that ARE completely wrong. But not everyone has a masters degree in physics. Some people on here are just 13 year old kids who have no idea about anything when it comes to gear, and need advice, and some people have been playing for decades, and have much experience and know what amps will be how loud.
I just don't think that wattage and decibels have nothing to do with volume or sound. If somebody is going to purchase gear, I recommend trying anything out before you buy it anyways. But sometimes people need more advice than "Just get what sounds good", because not everyone has the option of trying out every piece of gear they'd like.

[JimmyM]

specs give me a rough idea if a piece of gear will work for me. my ears make the final decision. i consider each quite important to my decision-making process.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by T-Bird

For an informed person the specs are the way to make an informed decision.

Yes. It's like learning a language. If you are in a foreign country and don't speak the language, all the text written there is useless to you--all you can do is use your senses to figure what seems like the right way to go or the right thing to do. If you do learn the language, you can read the roadmaps and menus and benefit from that knowledge and ability to choose roads and food intelligently. Of course reading maps and menus is not the same as walking the roads and tasting the food, just as reading amp specs is not the same as playing through an amp and using your ears. But no matter how important the live feel/taste/hear experience is, there is no denying that being able to read the language can help you get around more efficiently and select foods that you have reason to believe you might like.

[CaptJoshGrizzly]

so, am i to believe that my acoustic b20 speaker at 20 watts is going to move as much air as an Ampeg SVT 810 with, well any amp really?

[johnk_10]

IMO, on one hand, specs are almost useless when trying to determine how an amp or cabinet actually sounds (especially 'tone-wise), and many manufacturers seem to 'fudge' the numbers to their advantage (its called 'advertising'), but, i do still refer to them as a basic guidline.

as far as power specs, when it comes to amps, as inaccurate or varied as they may be (i.e RMS, EIA, continuous, peak, 'program or music' power), i must say that most company's specs still offer at least decent guideline as to how much power or output you can expect a head to have.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by CaptJoshGrizzly

so, am i to believe that my acoustic b20 speaker at 20 watts is going to move as much air as an Ampeg SVT 810 with, well any amp really?

You have to use your ears to determine that! There's no way to know just by looking at the numbers.

[CaptJoshGrizzly]

so i did some listening...and i've come to the conclusion that if you're sitting behind a computer, recording, doing whatever you like to do watts aren't that much of a difference.

however, if i'm out at a club, i appreciate the sound banging on my body more than a nice tone. that's just me though.

[greencow]

One thing that was not mentione here is how wattage of the amp is measured. They measure it at a certain % of THD(Total Harmonic Distortion) for example 450w at 0.05% THD. THD < 1% is considered inaudible to the human ear. However the process of determining the % of THD is really not as simple as 1+1 because who is to determine where the natural signal shaping turns into harmonic distortion...

I agree that wattage doesn't equal loud, however it is good to know that for gigging with a rockband I should be looking at amps with 300 watts (It leaves you enough headroom) and for gigging with an acoustic band 70w should be more then one would ever need. Just a rough guidline so I won't end up with a Hartke A75 in a metal band performing without the help pf PA....

[JimmyM]

one slight modification...300w and enough speaker area to make it work for your needs. i think that as cheap as you can get power these days, you might as well get at least one amp that can do 300w, but if you run it into a tiny cab, it's probably going to come up a little short.

[I play metal]

Its a fine art and balance of knowing each.Tech spec crap VS just jamming out a good rockin show,etc.

At one point in the day Im comparing how my rig will do If I add this or that speaker and if the wattages work,etc,etc,etc.(total lame nerd gadget lover)IMO and IME you have to know the fundamentals generally.Just for realistic bass playing for live shows,studio,etc.


Then on the stage 5 hours laser Im half naked breathing fire off the end of my bass scraping groupies of me with a shovel.

Ya dig?

I think its sooo boring the bass players who just stand on stage like zombies and worry too mouch about the tech talk crap.But im not one to judge and its jus my opinion and im wayyy under educated in this regard!!

[Sartori]

Specs given by companies are ballpark figures, usually. Sometimes they're very overly optimistic.

That said, they can be useful really basic things. For example, if your head puts out 1200 watts, you will probably not be able to use its full power with a single 200W cab.

An SVT, which is 300 watts, is probably going to be able to get louder than a V4B, which is 100 watts, unless there's something wrong with the former.

Ultimately, one has to trust their ears, but that doesn't mean we should totally ignore specs. Just take them with a grain of salt.

[somedumbguy]

Maybe I wasn't completely clear in my post. Wattage can give you a rough/ballpark idea of loudness. However, when determining actual loudness, you should definately listen to your ears.