Why the need to be more careful with Genz STL cabs than other similar brands.

[chiplexic]

I've often heard and read you can't or shouldn't use any amp other than or bigger than the Shuttle 6.0 with the Genz 12T or 210T cabs. Mainly since the 6.0 is tuned/attenuated for these smaller,shallower cabs.
But looking at the dimensional size and wattage rating of these two cabs , in comparison to other brands, makes me wonder what all the fuss is about. It appears to me the same prudent eq and volume management used with any cab combo is all that's called for here...or is there something I'm missing.

Examples
Genz STL-12T 18 x 18.5 x 14.5 300watts
Berg AE112 15.75 x 14.5 x 14 300watts
Aggy DB12 1 4 x 19 x 19 300watts

Genz STL 210T 24 x 18.5 x 14.5 400watts
Berg AE210 22.75 x 18 x 12.5 400watts
Aggy DB210 24.5 x 16.6 x13.1 350watts

No one would hesitate to use their Shuttle 9.0 or Littemark III with the Berg or Aggy cabs. And they are the same rated wattage and small than the Genz STL cabs. WHy is a 9.0 with a STL12 or STL210 so taboo ?? Seems to me there's no difference. That STL-210T is a real nice sounding cab too! This mind set and warning seems to be turning people away from an other wise very usable cab that should get serious consideration.

[bass4worship]

I'll use any amp with any cab as long as the ohms match.

[1kinal]

I think it's just because the shuttle cabs have not been designed to receive massive amounts of low-end. The shuttle heads were designed to be used with those cabinets so the head is the perfect match because the hi-pass filter is set slightly higher (say 40hz instead of 30hz even if it's probably not that much difference) than on other heads.

You can use any head with the shuttle cabs, just make sure you don't excessively boost the lows and keep you ears open. If the speakers fart, it means you're too loud of have too much lows for the volume you're at.

[hasbeen]

you don't need to be more careful. I can easily blow a 1000 watt rated cab with a 300 watt amp......and vice versa.

I'm also still trying to get the myth put to bed that our Shuttle amps were designed specifically for the Shuttle cabs.

I do remind people that cabinets are very "application" specific. The Shuttle 1x12 is a smaller cab than the NeoX 1x12. It is VERY common for a player to not recognize that a cabinet is at its terminal limit and then, they turn up even more. The smaller the cab, the sooner this can happen.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by chiplexic

I've often heard and read you can't or shouldn't use any amp other than or bigger than the Shuttle 6.0 with the Genz 12T or 210T cabs. Mainly since the 6.0 is tuned/attenuated for these smaller,shallower cabs.
But looking at the dimensional size and wattage rating of these two cabs , in comparison to other brands, makes me wonder what all the fuss is about. It appears to me the same prudent eq and volume management used with any cab combo is all that's called for here...or is there something I'm missing.

Examples
Genz STL-12T 18 x 18.5 x 14.5 300watts
Berg AE112 15.75 x 14.5 x 14 300watts
Aggy DB12 1 4 x 19 x 19 300watts

Genz STL 210T 24 x 18.5 x 14.5 400watts
Berg AE210 22.75 x 18 x 12.5 400watts
Aggy DB210 24.5 x 16.6 x13.1 350watts

No one would hesitate to use their Shuttle 9.0 or Littemark III with the Berg or Aggy cabs. And they are the same rated wattage and small than the Genz STL cabs. WHy is a 9.0 with a STL12 or STL210 so taboo ?? Seems to me there's no difference. That STL-210T is a real nice sounding cab too! This mind set and warning seems to be turning people away from an other wise very usable cab that should get serious consideration.

Wattage ratings are pretty much fantasy (both for heads and especially for cabs). Quite frankly, one has to be an idiot to 'blow a driver'. In 35 years of playing, the only thing I've ever done is blow a tweeter out of an Epifani cab by running a low powered head WAY too hard on one gig (and you know what... during the last, stupid loud set... I was an idiot).

EVERY cab can be abused. I don't think there is anything 'special' about the little Shuttle cabs regarding physics or 'non idiotness'.

That being said, the Genz guys aren't stupid, and the fact that they rolled off the low end of the Shuttle 6 more than most other heads so that idiots are less likely to blow the very small and low xmax Shuttle cabs makes sense to me. No harm, no foul

Here is KJung's 'rule to live by'. If you play a gig and you hear a compressed sound toward the end of the night (i.e., the bass starts to disappear, and the treble starts to disappear... kind of like a compressor set at too high of a level), then turn down. If you find yourself turning down toward the end of the night regularly, buy a bigger rig.

[Dan Knowlton]

Where did you hear that CARP? Do you hang out at Guitar Center too much? (VBG!)

It doesn't matter what you match up, as long as you don't push the head or the cab too hard. If you listen you will know when you are pushing too hard - when you do, you need more cabinets/power.

Dan K.

Originally Posted by chiplexic

I've often heard and read you can't or shouldn't use any amp other than or bigger than the Shuttle 6.0 with the Genz 12T or 210T cabs. Mainly since the 6.0 is tuned/attenuated for these smaller,shallower cabs.
But looking at the dimensional size and wattage rating of these two cabs , in comparison to other brands, makes me wonder what all the fuss is about. It appears to me the same prudent eq and volume management used with any cab combo is all that's called for here...or is there something I'm missing.

Examples
Genz STL-12T 18 x 18.5 x 14.5 300watts
Berg AE112 15.75 x 14.5 x 14 300watts
Aggy DB12 1 4 x 19 x 19 300watts

Genz STL 210T 24 x 18.5 x 14.5 400watts
Berg AE210 22.75 x 18 x 12.5 400watts
Aggy DB210 24.5 x 16.6 x13.1 350watts

No one would hesitate to use their Shuttle 9.0 or Littemark III with the Berg or Aggy cabs. And they are the same rated wattage and small than the Genz STL cabs. WHy is a 9.0 with a STL12 or STL210 so taboo ?? Seems to me there's no difference. That STL-210T is a real nice sounding cab too! This mind set and warning seems to be turning people away from an other wise very usable cab that should get serious consideration.

[chiplexic]

Originally Posted by Dan Knowlton

Where did you hear that CARP? Do you hang out at Guitar Center too much? (VBG!)
CARP?
It doesn't matter what you match up, as long as you don't push the head or the cab too hard. If you listen you will know when you are pushing too hard - when you do, you need more cabinets/power.
Dan K.

CARP?.......
Well, first off...no, I have enough experience and info to not need the GC crew to enlighten me.
I'm actually more surprised you haven't heard anything along those lines. Heck...it's referred to even in Ed Friedland's Shuttle 6.0 video. And reams of TB posts talking about the low end attenuated 3.0 and 6.0 heads to match the STL cabs.

I guess my initial post was as much a statement as it was a question.

Genz Benz (quite sure I read quoted here) uses the same driver in the STL cabs as the Neox line. And they have told me those Neox drivers are based off of the Eminence DeltaLite II series of neo speakers (with a minor tweek more for voicing than performance). Those DeltaLite Eminence drivers have a better excursion rating than many of the common drivers. And, those Shuttle cabs (12T and 210T) really aren't that small. I understand you can't plug in a Shuttle 9.0 and let er' rip. But that's the case with any cab.

My main point is these are great cabs...much better than the much talked about new ultra light GK MBE cabs.
I have a feeling players think that if they don't like the Shutle 3.0 or 6.0 tone then there is no sense in using the STL cabs. And that is unfortunate for those looking to lighten their load...and there sure seems to be a lot looking to do that these days.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by chiplexic

CARP?.......
Well, first off...no, I have enough experience and info to not need the GC crew to enlighten me.
I'm actually more surprised you haven't heard anything along those lines. Heck...it's referred to even in Ed Friedland's Shuttle 6.0 video. And reams of TB posts talking about the low end attenuated 3.0 and 6.0 heads to match the STL cabs.

I guess my initial post was as much a statement as it was a question.

Genz Benz (quite sure I read quoted here) uses the same driver in the STL cabs as the Neox line. And they have told me those Neox drivers are based off of the Eminence DeltaLite II series of neo speakers (with a minor tweek more for voicing than performance). Those DeltaLite Eminence drivers have a better excursion rating than many of the common drivers. And, those Shuttle cabs (12T and 210T) really aren't that small. I understand you can't plug in a Shuttle 9.0 and let er' rip. But that's the case with any cab.

My main point is these are great cabs...much better than the much talked about new ultra light GK MBE cabs.
I have a feeling players think that if they don't like the Shutle 3.0 or 6.0 tone then there is no sense in using the STL cabs. And that is unfortunate for those looking to lighten their load...and there sure seems to be a lot looking to do that these days.

Your original post is a poor one then. You are mistaking a small cab with a very attenuated low end with 'having to be careful', which no one is saying. You are also confusing 'rated wattage' of a cab with how loud or low a cab gets. The 'rated wattage' of a cab is a very loose guide to maximum power, not low end, SPL, or maximum volume. The volume and low end of two cabs with similar drivers can be VERY different, even if the maximum wattage rating is identical.

The Shuttle cabs are very small, and they are tuned quite high. The Shuttle 6 is voiced to take that into account... nothing wrong with that. It has nothing to do with 'blowing them up' or whatever. You can have two of three things... small, loud, and low. The Shuttle cabs are very small, and to allow them to get reasonably loud, they don't go low (hence the rather high low end cut-off of the heads designed to work with them.

No mystery there. Nice small combo's for practice or small gigs.

[gregbackstrom]

Originally Posted by KJung

Wattage ratings are pretty much fantasy (both for heads and especially for cabs). Quite frankly, one has to be an idiot to 'blow a driver'. In 35 years of playing, the only thing I've ever done is blow a tweeter out of an Epifani cab by running a low powered head WAY too hard on one gig (and you know what... during the last, stupid loud set... I was an idiot).

+1 The many posts I read about blowing drivers also amaze me. I've played loudly for over 42 years now, in that time owning everything from a blackface Fender Bassman to Gibson, Sunn, Standel, Ampeg & Vox gear, to the latest stuff currently on the market. In all that time, I think I've blown one driver: a tweeter in an Acme Low B2. And that was from careless cabling, not from playing.

My point is that if you listen to your sound and turn down when you hear unintended distortion, you should be able to avoid damaging your speakers, regardless of design constraints. And the resale value of working equipment is much greater than the value of the broken stuff!

BTW, my Shuttle 3.0-10t is going strong with lots of 5 string action under its belt, and trust me, I haven't babied it any! That's a great little cabinet!

Of course, YDMV!

Greg

[edfriedland]

Yes, you CAN use the 9.0 with the Shuttle cabs without blowing it up - if you respect the inherent limitations of the setup... I did it for a couple of months, but ultimately switched back to the 6.0. They are just a better match. The 9.0 has a more open sub range than the 6.0, and the Shuttle cabs were not designed with that in mind. I can get as much bottom as I need out of the 6.0/12t (especially with the extension cab). To my ears, the 9.0 didn't sound as tight or focused in that rig. Now, plug the 9.0 into a big cab and it's lights out!

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by edfriedland

Yes, you CAN use the 9.0 with the Shuttle cabs without blowing it up - if you respect the inherent limitations of the setup...

Thank you Ed.

This pretty much sums it up for all combinations regardless of brand. It seems all too common that folks will buy a really compact cabiet and a big amp with unrealistic expactations and asume that they can overcome the physics limitations by using more power and low end eq. The results are the same for all brands... damaged speakers.

Our designs are considerate of what the real world conditions present. We have seen the results of unrealistic expectations and have incorporated this into our deisgn and voicing approach. I have 30 years of touring pro audio under my belt and am still out in the field keeping my feet wet seeing hor equipment gets abused. With a 3 year transferrable warranty (pretty liberal compared with most products), it's in everybody's best interest to make a product that's as reliable as possible under real world conditions.

Also, the Neo drivers we use are "based" on the Eminence metalwork but bear no relationship to the stock off the shelf drivers. All of our soft parts are all different, and designed specifically for our range of products and applications. This includes both performance and voicing sapects.

[Red Planet]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Thank you Ed.

This pretty much sums it up for all combinations regardless of brand. It seems all too common that folks will buy a really compact cabiet and a big amp with unrealistic expactations and asume that they can overcome the physics limitations by using more power and low end eq. The results are the same for all brands... damaged speakers.

I can see this if pushed to excess, however the combination of my Shuttle 9.0 and my 400 watt 2x10 cab are a match made in Heaven. Between the extra power/authority (not normally associated with an 8 ohm 2x10 cab/amp combination) the 9.0 lends and a flip of the Low Boost, I'm able to do with a tiny amp what others would with a much larger setup. Though rarely do I turn the master past half way. Have not blown a speaker yet, but who knows.

[svtb15]

I don't like the .VS threads. And ones that have a title such as this one.. Simply because no matter who the manufacturer is, you see a Thread title as the one here, and people without reading the thread get a notion in their heads that something is wrong with a certain product . Without ever getting the details....
And usually without even looking into the thread.. Just my 2 cents.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by svtb15

I don't like the .VS threads. And ones that have a title such as this one.. Simply because no matter who the manufacturer is, you see a Thread title as the one here, and people without reading the thread get a notion in their heads that something is wrong with a certain product . Without ever getting the details....
And usually without even looking into the thread.. Just my 2 cents.

totally agreed.

[svtb15]

Dont you have a FEDEX toy coming today? I read you have a new DI. the VT super dupper??
Post about when you get time

Originally Posted by JimmyM

totally agreed.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by svtb15

Dont you have a FEDEX toy coming today? I read you have a new DI. the VT super dupper??
Post about when you get time

got to leave for my gig in 10 minutes...not looking good to get it today, bro.

[Red Planet]

Originally Posted by svtb15

I don't like the .VS threads. And ones that have a title such as this one.. Simply because no matter who the manufacturer is, you see a Thread title as the one here, and people without reading the thread get a notion in their heads that something is wrong with a certain product . Without ever getting the details....
And usually without even looking into the thread.. Just my 2 cents.

I agree.

For the record there are no issues with the Genz Benz Gear. Best stuff on the planet.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by edfriedland

(snip) I can get as much bottom as I need out of the 6.0/12t (especially with the extension cab). To my ears, the 9.0 didn't sound as tight or focused in that rig. Now, plug the 9.0 into a big cab and it's lights out!

I agree with Ed. I gave up a Sunn Coliseum-300 head played through a single 15 and a 4x10 for a pair of the 12T speakers matched with a Shuttle 6.0 head....and I haven't lost ANY bottom end.

What I have lost is: about 143 pounds of gear to lug around!

That's the difference between the two amp/speaker combinations. I calculated that the first combination weighed a total of 211 pounds - the G-B gear totals 68 pounds, and still gets nice and low...and loud.

[rok51]

I love my Shuttles. I have the 3.0 10T with the matching 10T cab and the 9.0 head. Both give me a lot of grins. I do need to be realistic and not expect the pair of 10Ts to shake the earth or cause fillings to fall out in the first five rows...that said, it's a very versatile setup...and very easy to schlep around. The lowest of notes are reproduced...evenly...and with good clarity...it likes my fiver just fine...to actually have the option of a high quality, lightweight...and powerful rig...has been mind-boggling to this ol' fart...and the ability to use the setup as a stage monitor and shoulder the load through the FOH, just adds icing to the cake...
Now my 9.0...paired with two of my GS112s...it is amazing...(okay...I was going to say "smokes"...but then folks would think that it was going into meltdown...)...whenever I play that setup, I am ready to be busted for having an illegal grin...

kim

[chiplexic]

Originally Posted by svtb15

I don't like the .VS threads. And ones that have a title such as this one.. Simply because no matter who the manufacturer is, you see a Thread title as the one here, and people without reading the thread get a notion in their heads that something is wrong with a certain product . Without ever getting the details....
And usually without even looking into the thread.. Just my 2 cents.

Well I tend to agree. And since I really like Genz as a product and company, negative connotation certainly wasn't my intent.