Why so expensive?

[Phendyr_Loon]

I've played Markbass setups before and I don't know if it was the room acoustics, the eq settings, or the bass I was playing but I liked what I heard.
Now I'm not singling out and bashing MB amps, in my opinion the same can be said for Eden, Genz Benz, U.S. made GK, or Warwick's Hellborg amps and other boutique-esc amps.
I realize that most of these amp manufactures are not outsourcing to Asia, making IMO better quality and costing a bit more the produce their product. In my general understanding of all the facets involved in producing and selling a product I realize too that these companies probably do not produce volumes that of Ampeg, Peavey, Marshall, Fender etc.
So my main question here is the actual cost to produce these high dollar amps, taking into consideration more for overhead and manufacturing, really what is driving up the retail price?
I can't imagine the other factors like research and development, engineering, and marketing costing a company like Markbass any more than it costs Peavey.

[jlepre]

If it's a neo cab, the materials have skyrocketed in recent years due to the use of the same raw materials in Hybrid Car batteries. JMHO

[KJung]

You can get a Markbass LMIII for around $500 new with discount on some sites. That is surely not expensive to me, especially given the quality of the unit.

Per the above, neo cabs are going up in price across all manufacturers.

[allexcosta]

Eden, Genz Benz and U.S. made GK are not boutique-esc brands... Just regular brands with fairly priced amps...

MB has innovated more than PV and probably spent more in R&D.

I could bet that GK produces more bass amps than Ampeg and Fender combined. You may see only Ampeg in the US, but GK sells millions of amps worldwide every year and is definitely the leading brand in many countries I've visited...

[Steve]

It's called "Economy of scale"

[shoot-r]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I could bet that GK produces more bass amps than Ampeg and Fender combined. You may see only Ampeg in the US, but GK sells millions of amps worldwide every year and is definitely the leading brand in many countries I've visited...

+1...
I have absolutely nothing to base this on except what I've observed over many years.



As to the expense of amps and cabs.
IMHO, I think many bass amp and bass cabinet manufacturers have reached a tipping point, where their price has "far exceeded" their quality and value.
There's some manufactures 1-10 cabinets in the $1000.00 plus dollar range now, a 212 cab in the $2000.00 plus dollar range, most tube heads $2000.00 plus dollar range, a 30 watt tube amp with a single 15" speaker in the $4000.00 dollar range!

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I could bet that GK produces more bass amps than Ampeg and Fender combined. You may see only Ampeg in the US, but GK sells millions of amps worldwide every year and is definitely the leading brand in many countries I've visited...

Not even a slight chance.
You'd be hard pressed finding GK gear in Europe, except within gear enthousiast circles.
Ampeg, Hartke and Fender make the gross of the pack. If people care a lot about their amp, they may have a Markbass or EBS.
On pro stages you will get an Ampeg 9 times out of 10.
That's it.

[pasta4lnch]

Originally Posted by KJung

You can get a Markbass LMIII for around $500 new with discount on some sites. That is surely not expensive to me, especially given the quality of the unit.

I think the LM series are a steal! One of the best deals in bass amps . . .

I'd wager a bet that the markup on almost all the gear we use isn't very much. That said, some feel "better" is worth a price. Some feel where something is made worth extra $$. And some people think more $$ = better. But I'd be surprised if something was made for, say, 1/2 of it's asking price when factoring in delivery, r & d, advertising etc ... but what do I know? I'm just a guy from Queens

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

MB has innovated more than PV and probably spent more in R&D.

I think Peavey had Class D and SMTP for more than a decade or two before it was fashionable. Just lately in more bass-related stuff they've done a 300-watt tube amp that weighs 37 pounds, a very difficult R&D endeavor, and a new generation of Class D power amps that weigh between 7 and 8 pounds, with great DSP options - if they ever get the entire lineup shipping rather than just a couple models. Where Peavey seems to be losing the plot is in marketing and production moves.

Markbass has done some nice stuff though, as you say. And to the OP: the prices must not be that bad or they wouldn't have such high ownership.

[allexcosta]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Not even a slight chance.
You'd be hard pressed finding GK gear in Europe, except within gear enthousiast circles.
Ampeg, Hartke and Fender make the gross of the pack. If people care a lot about their amp, they may have a Markbass or EBS.
On pro stages you will get an Ampeg 9 times out of 10.
That's it.

I guess the world is comprised of just US and Europe then...

Fair enough...

[shoot-r]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Not even a slight chance.
You'd be hard pressed finding GK gear in Europe, except within gear enthousiast circles.
Ampeg, Hartke and Fender make the gross of the pack. If people care a lot about their amp, they may have a Markbass or EBS.
On pro stages you will get an Ampeg 9 times out of 10.
That's it.

I'll admit it was the mid "80's" when I toured Europe, but every furnished backline amp that was furnished me was either a Ampeg SVT or a GK 800...and predominantly it was a GK.
I guess things have changed there.

[MNAirHead]

Manufacturing processes and transportation eat up margins quick.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I guess the world is comprised of just US and Europe then...

Fair enough...

When it comes to bass amps, these two likely make the gross of the market don't you think?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Phendyr_Loon

is the actual cost to produce these high dollar amps, taking into consideration more for overhead and manufacturing, really what is driving up the retail price?.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In many cases a brand picks a price point based on perceived value, as in 'it costs more, so it must be better'. Whether MB is worth more to you is the question, and only you can answer it.
OTOH you have a brand like Peavey that has always made products about as good as anyone's, but because of their pricing they're perceived as cheap. That's mainly a marketing issue; Peavey will open literally anyone as a dealer, that results in too much pricing competition, and IMO cheapens the brand irrespective of how well it works.

[allexcosta]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

When it comes to bass amps, these two likely make the gross of the market don't you think?

Good question that I honestly can't answer... Being from Brazil and living in US I can tell you that there's WAYYYY more gigs going on in South America than North and having played for 20+ years around 200 gigs per year I've encountered Ampeg rigs less than a dozen of times and played with 800RB's in more than 1000 shows easily... My brother played in Montreaux Festival a few years ago and they had GK there...

Reading that you play Rock, Jazz Rock and Metal makes me think that Ampeg is preferred by the events you attend, but not necessarily a majority in Europe. I can always be wrong...

[Jazz Ad]

Daewoo did just this in Europe.
Their cars wouldn't sell well. They retired and came back under the Chevrolet brand, same cars but higher prices and they're doing pretty well now.

[agedhorse]

Here's just a few items (not easily seen) that are responsible for the increased costs in our market:

- Materials, especially Neo, copper and aluminum have increased greatly over the last several years

- Finishing, the costs of environmentally friendly finishes and processes are more costly than you might imagine.

- Insurance, the cost of this is part of the costs associated with building and delivering product to you.

- R&D, as amp performance gets greater and the size/weight decreases, additional engineering costs are necessary to make everything fit and still operate properly.

- Emissions testing, bass amps that use SMPS and/or class D technology require testing and analysis at a nationally accredited testing laboratory to certify that they meet FCC and international RFI emissions standards. This includes both radiated as well as conducted emissions and disturbance tests. The cost and complexity of these tests are (to put it nicely) "substantial.

- Safety testing, Every product that is to be sold must be tested to the appropriate safety standards for the particular market. This may include specific variations on CB Scheme, C-Tick, TUV, UL, CSA, etc. This testing is done by nationally recognized testing labs (NRTL's) and often involves destructive testing of several samples of each model too. The cost of both the product testing AND the substantial engineering paperwork development and management is really staggeringly large.

- Cost of transportation, this has been affected recently by the increase in fuel prices and may continue to increase for a while. Each step of the transportation chain is adding fuel surcharges, so several surcharges may have been passed along by the time you receive your new amp.

These are just some of the more hidden costs associated with your amps. And... there are others, believe it or not!

[darkstorm]

The brands you mention, eden, markbass, etc are hifi bass rigs unlike peavey. Its kinda like the diff between radio shack stereo gear compared to stuff that costs a few hundred for each componant and speaker. Higher qaulity parts etc for higher qaulity sound. Brands like markbass and eden are making their speakers more to the specs of mid to higher end audio rather then works but cheap like peavey etc. Dont get me wrong I think peavey is among the best out there for low price reliable stuff, but its not geting into the near audiophile grade these more expensive brands like markbass, eden etc are.

[lpdeluxe]

To inject some sanity into the discussion: bass amp manufacturers exist to stay in business. There are two competing forces working on them:

One is to charge enough that they can stay in business. The other is to compete on price with other popular brands. Do you offer the features that everyone seems to want, and try to get it to market at the lowest price, or do you build something that people will pay for because it's simply so damn good you don't effectively have any competition?

I've already voted: I have a Mesa/Boogie Walkabout Scout, a Fender 400 210, and a Genz-Benz 3.0 Shuttle 2-10T rig, and that pretty much allows me to play with any band in any situation with great tone and plenty of volume. What's missing from the equation? The insistence that I ought to be able to do what I want without making compromises, especially on price. Do you think the Chinese should be supplying all our gear because their labor costs are low? No thanks. I'll pay the price and play killer bass. Maybe, if price is your main concern you're in the wrong business.

[hrgiger]

one thing that comes to mind with Peavey, is that a non-traded company is left to please 2 groups only: itself and its customers. a lot of other big companies have the 3rd group, the greedy shareholders.

on the subject of 'boutique' 'audiophile' etc. amps please it does not cost that much to produce those preamps, etc. people nowadays think that if they make something fancy they should be paid like a rockstar. and there are people willing to pay so they can post on TB to brag (often just minutes after they put their credit card back in their wallet, before their wife finds out.) for comparison, if someone makes a beautiful piece of solid walnut furniture by hand nowadays, ask how much it is. years ago when everyone did it that way they put in at least as much talent and hard work, and they got what a dresser cost. which is why nowadays we have sorry particle board furniture that costs even more and people are brain-washed into thinking it is pretty great.