Why use tweeters?

[bass4u]

Both my guitar players and I were discussing guitar and bass speaker cabinets tonight and one of the guitar players said "why do your bass cabinets have tweeters and none of our guitar cabinets have them?" I thought about his question and I didn't have an answer for him. Would love to hear TBer's thoughts on this. His question really got me thinking about it.

[tony_clifton]

1. You don't _need_ tweeters. Some people like them, I for example have one cab with a tweet and one without. I set my tweeter attenuator about halfway.
2. If you have them, they give some 'air' to your sound (music instruments produce overtones), or if you play slap they are a huge part of your tone (fret noises).
3. Guitar speakers have a bigger range, they can produce the highs that come from distortion by themselves.
4. Guitar cabs with tweeters would constantly blow the tweeters. A thermal thingy.

In short

This has been covered multiple times by now btw...

[Sundogue]

Because they are a cheaper alternative for commercial bass cab manufacturers than using dedicated mid range speakers.

Due to the physics of reproducing bass frequencies, bass speakers that do the low end well cannot do the high end well. Those that can handle the high end cannot do the low end well. That's just how it is, no matter how "full range" a bass speaker is. No single bass speaker can handle the full range of bass on it's own and do it all well.

Ideally a bass cab that is truly full range would employ a subwoofer (that handles the lows perfectly) matched to a mid range driver (that can handle the mids and highs) and possibly a "high end" tweeter (for the extreme high harmonic content). But that tweeter would not be the crappy cheapo ones normally found on commercial cabs. However, most of the better mid range drivers can handle most all of the high end bass guitar content on their own, so no need for a tweeter.

The reason you don't see mid range speakers in most bass cabs is that manufacturers don't want to spend the money in designing or building a cab that has it's own separate "cab within a cab" to house the mid range driver. So they throw in a full range woofer (one that doesn't go as low as a subwoofer, nor as high as a mid range driver) in the cab, along with a cheap tweeter to add some highs and call it a day knowing most bass players will be content with that. Even though there are upper mids/lower highs missing in between and the woofer won't go as low as it could. Still most bass players keep buying the same configuration, so the manufacturers keep making them.

Guitar uses full range speakers, but without needing the deep lows bass needs, their speakers can handle all guitar content with the speaker alone. Couple that with tweeters being easily blown by too much power resulting from overdriving them and you can see that tweeters are not going to work on a guitar cab.

Tell your guitar buds that they'd blow your tweeters if they used them just like you'd blow their speakers if you used theirs. Reproducing guitar and bass are completely different worlds.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by bass4u

"why do your bass cabinets have tweeters and none of our guitar cabinets have them?"

The reason guitar cabs don't use tweeters is because overdriven tones sound really bad through them. The reason bass cabs have tweeters is that they're cheaper than the midrange drivers that they should have.

[bass4u]

I guess EV was on to something with the B115-M cabinet. I used to play through 2 of them in the mid 90's but since they were only 200 watt cabinets I switched to Eden 410XLTs that could handle as much power as I throw at them. The B115-M EV cabinets sounded very good and the build quality was awesome.

[Dave-Action-Fig]

So are there any cabs with the dedicated mid-range speaker(s)?

[colcifer]

SWR Triad. I've heard mixed things about it; anyone here have one?

[Gerhn Blanston]

Originally Posted by bass4u

I guess EV was on to something with the B115-M cabinet. I used to play through 2 of them in the mid 90's but since they were only 200 watt cabinets I switched to Eden 410XLTs that could handle as much power as I throw at them. The B115-M EV cabinets sounded very good and the build quality was awesome.

Like this? KILLER CAB!!!

[Plstrns]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The reason guitar cabs don't use tweeters is because overdriven tones sound really bad through them. The reason bass cabs have tweeters is that they're cheaper than the midrange drivers that they should have.

+1

Speakers have always been the weak link in sound reinforcement.

Guitarist use their cabs for EQ shaping. 12"s give them an extended bass response, and limited high end response for a smooth distorted tone.

Bassist,with a sealed 810 (ala Ampeg) can mic their cab and perform the same way as a guitarist although without the root being fully reproduced in the PA and a touch of the top being under produced. However, ported bass cabs designed for tight, but extended bass cannot reproduce highs without help.

The whole tweeter deal started with pro slap bassists. They could get the tight loud bottom, and extended highs from a single 1/2 stack cabinet. Although the mids suffered, the tone worked with slap bass.

So, as with guitarist and their 12's, ported 10's with a horn continue as a trend for bassist. It still works for some, but speaker design has caught up! Change is coming.

[Crazyeelboy]

Many years ago, I had a great CV cabinet with an 18" folded horn and a 12" front loaded speaker to cover the mids and higher frequencies. That thing ruled, but it was big and heavy...

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Dave-Action-Fig

So are there any cabs with the dedicated mid-range speaker(s)?

Yes there are. I can't think of any besides Acme, Barefaced (across the pond) and LDS right at the moment. There is the fEarful for DIY people. I know there are others but can't think of them right now.

I built my own 210/6 cabs (like 2 way Acme's)...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by bass4u

Both my guitar players and I were discussing guitar and bass speaker cabinets tonight and one of the guitar players said "why do your bass cabinets have tweeters and none of our guitar cabinets have them?" I thought about his question and I didn't have an answer for him. Would love to hear TBer's thoughts on this. His question really got me thinking about it.

There's quite a few reasons why guitarists virtually never use cabs with tweeters, and many bassists do:

1) Guitar speakers don't need to go low, hence they can extend quite high into the lower treble. There is no free lunch. If a speaker is capable of going very deep (required by a bass guitar), then it is not going to be able to extend into the upper midrange, much less the treble region). This is why most stereo speakers have tweeters also.

2) Many guitarists like a nice, tube overdriven distortion in their tone. This sounds good coming from the top end of a driver being pushed... not so much through a tweeter.

Most bass cabs that are voiced relatively evenly (i.e., that use a nice, full range woofer) can benefit from a tweeter to extend the frequency range above the typical 2K or so rolloff of these types of drivers (IF you are one who likes some treble sparkle in your tone... many don't). If you have a cab that is voiced VERY deep (like the Acme cabs), then you might even need a mid driver, since those deeply voiced 'sub woofer' type hi xmax drivers tend to roll of very low... much lower than a typical tweeter/crossover can handle.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Dave-Action-Fig

So are there any cabs with the dedicated mid-range speaker(s)?

There are, as listed above. Interesting tone... not for everyone. These mid driver cabs have their own sound... very sweet and pure. Of course, a mid driver doesn't really do what a tweeter does (it doesn't extend up very high... maybe 4 or 5K). That is enough treble for some needs, and you do gain a bit of near field dispersion (that narrow band of upper mids that tends to beam a bit sounds a bit more even on stage).

You can get these mid driver loaded cabs with a three way crossover with tweeter... pretty nice if you like it deep, smooth, clean and with some sparkle up top.

See my LDS 212/6/1 clip in my Youtube channel. As part of the demo, I dial out the mid driver and tweeter with the attenuators and then dial them back in slowly, one at a time, so you can really hear the frequencies that each covers. And, for those who for some reason think that you can't get wonderful low end, great mid response, and a very even transition from a driver to a tweeter without a mid driver, listen to my various AE410 clips (or come out and see me live!).

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by KJung

There are, as listed above. Interesting tone... not for everyone. These mid driver cabs have their own sound... very sweet and pure. Of course, a mid driver doesn't really do what a tweeter does (it doesn't extend up very high... maybe 4 or 5K). That is enough treble for some needs, and you do gain a bit of near field dispersion (that narrow band of upper mids that tends to beam a bit sounds a bit more even on stage).

You can get these mid driver loaded cabs with a three way crossover with tweeter... pretty nice if you like it deep, smooth, clean and with some sparkle up top.

See my LDS 212/6/1 clip in my Youtube channel. As part of the demo, I dial out the mid driver and tweeter with the attenuators and then dial them back in slowly, one at a time, so you can really hear the frequencies that each covers. And, for those who for some reason think that you can't get wonderful low end, great mid response, and a very even transition from a driver to a tweeter without a mid driver, listen to my various AE410 clips (or come out and see me live!).

No doubt one can get the full range of frequencies at a fairly even level using a woofer/tweeter arrangement. However, those that do so evenly and smoothly are few and far between. Most leave a gap between where the woofer's top end ends and the tweeters's low end starts. And some people may even like or prefer that.

Acceptable or desirable as it is for some, on the whole there are not many woofer/tweeter bass cabs that go decently deep to acceptably high without gaps in the crossed over area, leaving shrill, irritating high end, or even lacking in the bottom end. As you point out, if a speaker can go deep, it cannot also go high equally well. Something has to give.

What's been given up are the upper mids and lower highs that mid drivers do so well. Newer speakers/tweeters and crossovers have extended the range better now, so there are some full range cabs that can do it pretty darn well. But the majority of cabs lack the very thing mid drivers bring to the sound.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

No doubt one can get the full range of frequencies at a fairly even level using a woofer/tweeter arrangement. However, those that do so evenly and smoothly are few and far between. Most leave a gap between where the woofer's top end ends and the tweeters's low end starts. And some people may even like or prefer that.

Acceptable or desirable as it is for some, on the whole there are not many woofer/tweeter bass cabs that go decently deep to acceptably high without gaps in the crossed over area, leaving shrill, irritating high end, or even lacking in the bottom end. As you point out, if a speaker can go deep, it cannot also go high equally well. Something has to give.

What's been given up are the upper mids and lower highs that mid drivers do so well. Newer speakers/tweeters and crossovers have extended the range better now, so there are some full range cabs that can do it pretty darn well. But the majority of cabs lack the very thing mid drivers bring to the sound.

+1 I agree there are some bad executions out there.

[will33]

I would add the benefit of greater dispersion when using mid drivers. You can find woofers and tweets that fill out the sound spectrum nicely without the mid but that still only happens pretty close to on axis. If your ears are above and/or beside the cabinet, as they are in a lot of cases, the sound hole comes back.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by will33

I would add the benefit of greater dispersion when using mid drivers. You can find woofers and tweets that fill out the sound spectrum nicely without the mid but that still only happens pretty close to on axis. If your ears are above and/or beside the cabinet, as they are in a lot of cases, the sound hole comes back.

With a nice vertical 212 or 210 and a tweeter crossed over in that typical 2.5 to 3.5K range, the dispersion issues in the upper mids for live bass guitar amplification are trivial based on my experience versus a mid driver. Quite frankly, in my A/Bing of 410 cabs and vertical 210 stacks, the dispersion issue in the upper mids is trivial in general for bass guitar backline. IMO and IME.

[Ric5]

Why use tweeters?

It is the best way to get that annoying dinking sound from your bass.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by KJung

With a nice vertical 212 or 210 and a tweeter crossed over in that typical 2.5 to 3.5K range, the dispersion issues in the upper mids for live bass guitar amplification are trivial based on my experience versus a mid driver. Quite frankly, in my A/Bing of 410 cabs and vertical 210 stacks, the dispersion issue in the upper mids is trivial in general for bass guitar backline. IMO and IME.

A lot of that depends on where you are relative to your rig. If you are the type that stays pretty much in close proximity to your rig throughout a gig, it really matter little if you can already get a good sound from your rig.

I play in pretty loud classic rock band and while for the most part am pretty close to my rig, there are many times I'm on the other side of the stage or even out in front of it (but not within decent range of the mids of the PA). I've found dispersal of mids to be of greater significance so as not to lose clarity.

However I agree. For the most part it isn't that big a deal and I've lived without it for most of my 30 years playing. Nice to have now that I realize it though.

[4-string]

Originally Posted by KJung

Interesting tone... not for everyone.

Thanks for pointing that out - contrary to what some people here seem to think, there might be that some people in fact prefer a traditional cab, despite its fawlty design.

I like some zing to my tone, thank you.