Worsened reliability of amps due to lead-free solder ?

Jacob J · #1 06-20-2012, 11:28 AM

Hi fellows,

Yesterday I met a friend at a gig, and since he´s also the bassplayer, our conversation almost immediately changed course and we started talking about bass related stuff. I told him I was thinking about buying new amp and he told me that he would never bought a new amp because they all will need a repair soon or later. I was a little bit surprised and asked him why not. And he told me that there is a law which prohibits using tin-lead solder in electronic devices and that nowadays only lead-free solder is used which is not so durable and it may result in worsened amps reliability. I didn´t know that there was such a law in force nor I didn´t know about lead-free solder. Also, I have almost zero knowledge about electronics. I´m just a bassplayer, you know...

I consider my friend to be quite accomplished player who knows his stuff but it´s not so wise to believe what one person said so I ask you guys. What do you think ? Is my friend right ? Or it is just rubbish ?

RickenBoogie · #2 06-20-2012, 11:33 AM

It's true about the solder, but I don't think it can be related to reliability issues. Any electronic equipment can fail, no matter the type of solder used.

seamonkey · #3 06-20-2012, 11:46 AM

Wow, here in the US, use all the lead you want. We're the land of the "Free" but not "Lead Free"

It's actually kind of embarrassing, but we don't do politics on this forum.

Lead free solder is fine. Google around the worries like tin whiskers and such. But coating the joints after soldering keeps this from happening. It took some practice, but even I can solder lead free. New skills for a new age.

Gear today is much less likely to fail and need a repair that requires soldering.

**TinIndian** · #4 06-20-2012, 11:56 AM

It's not really embarassing, what is embarassing is that the Europeans got the wool pulled over there eyes. As far as Conformal coating stopping tin whiskers, wrong again.

To the point though, Beyond the tin whisker problem which, if it happens, would take awhile to manifest itself, I have seen nothing to suggest that a properly done ROHS compliant solder joint is any less reliable or more brittle than a tin/lead one.

BurningSkies · #5 06-20-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob J

Hi fellows,

Yesterday I met a friend at a gig, and since he´s also the bassplayer, our conversation almost immediately changed course and we started talking about bass related stuff. I told him I was thinking about buying new amp and he told me that he would never bought a new amp because they all will need a repair soon or later. I was a little bit surprised and asked him why not. And he told me that there is a law which prohibits using tin-lead solder in electronic devices and that nowadays only lead-free solder is used which is not so durable and it may result in worsened amps reliability. I didn´t know that there was such a law in force nor I didn´t know about lead-free solder. Also, I have almost zero knowledge about electronics. I´m just a bassplayer, you know...

I consider my friend to be quite accomplished player who knows his stuff but it´s not so wise to believe what one person said so I ask you guys. What do you think ? Is my friend right ? Or it is just rubbish ?

Yes. Exactly. And its why I'll also never buy a car...I mean it's going to need a repair sooner or later, won't it? Its also why I rent instead of owning a house. Do you know how many repairs you have to do one one of those things!??!

T-Bird · #6 06-20-2012, 12:46 PM

Hi.

The reliability problems associated with the lead free solder doesn't lie in the strenght or durability of the solder itself, but in the soldering process.

If the equipment happens to be soldered by hand or even by a CNC soldering station, no problems (other than the user error of course). The lead-free is a hair trickier to use than the leaded, due to the slightly higher melting point and the different pasty stage behaviour, but nothing major.

BUT, 99.999% of the EL. stuff we have is and was wave-soldered.
That process requires some pretty sophisticated control, and lead free solder usually can't be used in older stations that used the regular tin-lead solder bath. Not without major modifications anyway.

Another problem with amps, especially tube amps, is that certain components have up to 5 times the material volume of the normal resistor lead, so when the temperature and the conveyor speed is optimized for the smaller leads, the bigger ones have a strong probability to be left cold. Optimizing the process for the tube sockets for example, will probably weaken the PCB traces adhesive and/or burn the sensitive SMD components.

So, a manufacturer that gives a rats ass about the quality, will eventually have just as reliable PCB's with lead-free solder as they did with the leaded one, but the manufacturers that do not care as deeply about the reliability, won't do a thing.

IME anyway.

Regards
Sam

Mr. Foxen · #7 06-20-2012, 01:36 PM

Plenty of other new manufacturing practices that lessen reliability, mostly the press to make things ever cheaper.

**TinIndian** · #8 06-20-2012, 01:37 PM

I wouldn't say it is slightly higher, rather it is siginficantly higher. The most popular formulation for wave solder applications is SN100C and it has a melting point of 227C as opposed to 63/37 that has a melting point of 183C. That is 24% higher and yes those increased temperatures do put more stress on smaller components and traces. That is one of the reasons to use custom wave solder pallets, no masking and decreases some of the stress.

Jacob J · #9 06-20-2012, 02:13 PM

Thanks for responses guys! I actually did some google before starting this thread and even read some scholar papers (which were too much for me anyway) and it seems that engineers are still struggling to find an appropriate substitution for tin-lead. I´ve read about tin-copper-silver solder which has certain qualities to it but higher melting point etc...
I´m really curious about this and I hope more guys will chime in.

basscooker · #10 06-20-2012, 02:15 PM

most of the amps in my price range would be considered black box or semi-disposable anyway. AND with a new amp, you have a warranty. USE IT. the very second you notice an issue-GET IT IN. my thinking is use a reputable product, care for your investment, and actually read the warranty info.

IME and from what i've read here, most of the big boys replace in lieu of repairing anyway when it comes to the micro and ss stuff. they can refurb and resell your unit as bstock, or something like that.

i've never read or heard about solder's reliability, but even the best solder can be applied incorrectly.

Jacob J · #11 06-20-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Yes. Exactly. And its why I'll also never buy a car...I mean it's going to need a repair sooner or later, won't it? Its also why I rent instead of owning a house. Do you know how many repairs you have to do one one of those things!??!

But it was my friend´s opinion, not mine. He was also kinda negative about quality of some other things. It just surprised me, because I didn´t know about such thing like lead-free solder and he presented it to me like it was a biggest mistake that could happen to electronic industry...

basscooker · #12 06-20-2012, 02:31 PM

so i just noticed, OP that you're in europe, so RoHS is law. i would imagine that the marshall guys would have something to say about this, but don't they make most of their stuff in Korea or something? i thought the law was that electronics can't be sold (new products) in Europe unless they ARE compliant, so does that mean that there are some amps made here in the US that would be illegal to sell as-is there? now i'm even more confused.... has Agedhorse chimed in on this thread yet?

Mr. Foxen · #13 06-20-2012, 02:37 PM

The Tech21 VT bass in a head amp is illegal to sell over here.

Lots of Marshall stuff is made in the UK, to their credit.

coreyfyfe · #14 06-20-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basscooker

i thought the law was that electronics can't be sold (new products) in Europe unless they ARE compliant, so does that mean that there are some amps made here in the US that would be illegal to sell as-is there?

Any company with global distribution would be smart to (read: most likely does) follow RoHS guidelines to simplify manufacturing.

**TinIndian** · #15 06-20-2012, 06:01 PM

Nearly all, if not all, consumer electronics are assembled using lead-free solder. US included. They have been for the last 10 years, so you can see that in most cases reliability is pretty darn good. That being said, there is a reason why anything made for NASA, Military, Flight or Medical applications are exempt.

grendle · #16 06-20-2012, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinIndian

I wouldn't say it is slightly higher, rather it is siginficantly higher. The most popular formulation for wave solder applications is SN100C and it has a melting point of 227C as opposed to 63/37 that has a melting point of 183C. That is 24% higher and yes those increased temperatures do put more stress on smaller components and traces. That is one of the reasons to use custom wave solder pallets, no masking and decreases some of the stress.

+1

We have seen an increase in solder related issues with the lead free solder in the electronics industry. Mostly in cold solder joints, but also in corrosion and cracked joints as well. They reformulated the solder and the flux but not the component lead material to my knowledge. Were starting to see some corrosion in the early lead free materials but I couldn't say it was significantly any better or worse than the leaded solder.

rag · #17 06-20-2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinIndian

I wouldn't say it is slightly higher, rather it is siginficantly higher. The most popular formulation for wave solder applications is SN100C and it has a melting point of 227C as opposed to 63/37 that has a melting point of 183C. That is 24% higher and yes those increased temperatures do put more stress on smaller components and traces. That is one of the reasons to use custom wave solder pallets, no masking and decreases some of the stress.

The problems with lead free are mainly due to the higher temperature required. We now have to hand solder many sensitive parts that used to be soldered in the wave. Once we figured this out our problems went away.
Bob

**TinIndian** · #18 06-20-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rag

The problems with lead free are mainly due to the higher temperature required. We now have to hand solder many sensitive parts that used to be soldered in the wave. Once we figured this out our problems went away.
Bob

+1

Same thing we have found in our shop. Many components just cant take the higher temps.

kurosawa · #19 06-20-2012, 07:27 PM

Food for thought here: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...able+Materials

Jerrold Tiers · #20 06-20-2012, 10:02 PM

There really IS a difference in resistance to cracking....... it is documented in the literature, and I have some recent personal experience with it.

I recently repaired a piece of "unrepairable" automotive electronics...... one of those $50 items that they charge $1100 for as replacement part..... DEFINITELY used lead-free solder.

I expected to find a bad solder joint due to the problem (failure with some heatiing, but good again when hotter than that).

Well... I found quite a number of cracks.... soldered up everything I could find with leaded solder, and so far is it fine. Nice savings so far.....

But I was shocked at the amount of cracking I found. It looks like most of the soldered-in-place connectors had some cracks at the PWB.