Would you be interested in approx. 25lb 4x10 or 16lb 2x10 (sound in the vein of a Ber

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

A friend just gave me a cheap pair of 1 cubic foot 10" PA boxes. They sound like they're about 1/4 or less as loud as the 15PR400 in a MM cab that's sitting right next to them, and oddly, they sound more pleasant. So I'm interested in learning your idea of an ideal bass cab for live performance, both indoors and out.

Hard to beat a 'fridge for output but they don't move themselves . A lot depends on what "sound" you're going for.

How would it differ from the reigning crop of hi-fi cabs?

Saying they are "reigning" is a bit of a stretch.

And if I could drop decent drivers into these boxes--I mean, there is a TON of great 1/2 to 1 cubic foot 10" drivers out there, or better yet, maybe a 310 tower, or 210 plus a downfiring 10--look at these little guys, http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2010pr310-1.htm for the existing 1 cu ft boxes, or this 1/2 cubic foot job http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2010hp1020-1.htm --that would actually fit in my tiny trunk, man, I'm ready to rock right now!

It's important to tune the cab to the drivers (unless it's sealed). And a couple 10's isn't going to do the louder gigs. I would like to hear a 3x10 ported vertical column with those Faital drivers . In any case one of the "secrets" is to have a good amp that has a decent HPF in it, especially with the lower xmax drivers.

[kurosawa]

Well OK, you started in on something fairly intriguing there, just want to hear the rest.

I like fridges. Fridges won't fit in my car. A new car isn't in the cards at the moment.

"Reigning" in terms of quantity of opinions. You said you fixed it with players. How?

Yeah I don't know how to tune them.

All I know is the cabs are internally 11 x 11 x 13.75" and the 10PR310's Vas is 0.99 cu ft.

Now if I could hire someone to calculate the port for me, I figure that would do it.

The three-driver solution would be kinda cool, would have to find good 16-ohm drivers.

http://usspeaker.com/Delta-10B-1.htm

http://usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2010pr300-1.htm

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

I like fridges. Fridges won't fit in my car. A new car isn't in the cards at the moment.

A pair of $250 SVT210AV's is a pretty good lightweight substitute .

You said you fixed it with players. How?

If I can talk them into dialing out the mid cut they generally are amazed that they can now hear what notes they are playing when the rest of the band is playing and often the rest of the band at least notices that the bass player doesn't suck as much as normal that night .

The three-driver solution would be kinda cool, would have to find good 16-ohm drivers.
http://usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2010pr300-1.htm

Yah, I was trying to get Flite to make me a 1x10 with the 4 ohm version of that and a 3x10 with the 16 ohm version . Now I have a pair of the SVT210AV's and a pair of the 212MBE's instead so I'm good.

[Mike Arnopol]

I'm very familiar with those drivers. Problem with the 10pr

Combination of high Fs and low Qts is going to give you a pretty lean low end.

The xmax is under 5mm---here's the problem---Faital measures their xmax differently than Eminence or even Celestion.
So comparing apples to apples the 10pr is more like a 3.5mm xmax in an Eminence.

The reason I went with the Faital 8pr200 is that I couldn't find a 10 that modeled the way I wanted. 4 of the 8pr's are pretty neat. What I've done (and I'm sure that lots of guys will give reasons why this doesn't sound good)

2 cabs with 2 8's. You can get away really small. I like one cab on the floor horizontally and the other vertically on top. Nice floor coupling with the 2 8's and nice height with the vertical one. And little of the midrange problems associated with 4 x 10's.

And Win ISD is a nice modeling program to fool around with. It will help with the porting.

I'm sure David's cabs sound great---I love the sound of Celestion drivers. A suggestion

If you use those cabs with an Fdeck HPF it will increase the dynamic range a lot. My little Faital 8 based cabs go TONS louder and stronger in the lows with the HPF.

[kurosawa]

@Roadkill: Very cool, are you stacking the SVT210AVs vertically? Yeah I was ogling those fer sure, only thing is I don't have much amp, and I really wanted to know the efficiency, and couldn't find it. Well I know I could drop an Ashdown VS212 in my tiny trunk, but ran into the same lack of data. The 212MBE won't fit in my trunk.

I was considering a Glasstone 212 Lil G, but I can't get hold of the owner no matter how I try. It's almost cubical so I could drop it in the front seat and squeeze the kids into the back.

Well the Faital 10s, if I wanted the rims to kiss each other and the box walls, and the walls 1/2" thick, would be 10.3 + 1 = 11.3 outside width, 10.3 x 3 + 1 = 31.9 outside height, and therefore 16.3 + 1 = 17.3 outside depth, say 18" with overhang to protect the rims plus room for a grille. Pretty sure I could squeeze that into my trunk.

[kurosawa]

@Mike: Oh yeah, those 8s flew right under my radar, wow, they are righteous! But a 4 x 8 vertical is too tall for the trunk and how am I going to get them . . . dang. Looks like if I want a reasonable cab impedance, I'm gonna have to run 6, well why not? Run 3 series pairs in parallel, and the cab will fit the trunk, 'cause each driver requires only its own little 10.25" cube to live in. That could be a totally bangin' cab, yeah. Hey I got a name for it: The Lower 48 (not four 8s, but 6*8).

Already have my fdeck3. I was like, where have you been all my life? 'Cause I'm usually always poor on power. Need to shake free of this tube habit.

[Mike Arnopol]

make two 2 x 8 cabs like I said---one horizontal on the floor and the other vertical on top. Good floor coupling, nice height and little of the midrange problems associated with side by side drivers. But impedance is an issue. My EA Doubler had no problem with the 2 ohm load. Maybe a better option is, as you said 6 of the 8's. Do 2 cabs---still small and you have a nice somewhere around a 5.3 ohm load. Near flat to 5 k without a tweeter. And if you need a tweet the 8pr rolls off so nicely that you can cross over very high with a 6db/octave. And no low pass on the woofer. I hate passive low pass filters on woofers. Now I've given away all of the trade secrets.

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

@Roadkill: Very cool, are you stacking the SVT210AVs vertically? Yeah I was ogling those fer sure, only thing is I don't have much amp, and I really wanted to know the efficiency, and couldn't find it.

Yah, they stack vertically nicely. Efficiency is different at different frequencies like most bass cabs. They are better in the >80Hz than most of the 2x10's that go lower. What do you have for an amp? Nice thing about tube amps is when you "push" them they generate harmonics that make the low end sound much louder than it actually is . I'm using one 212MBE with my Marshall Superbass clone at one rehearsal space (my token "Classic Rock" proto-band ) and it keeps ups with two Marshall guitar half stacks and the Fender full stack on my side - I definitely have the earplugs in if I'm getting near output overdrive. Dunno why anyone needs a stage amp louder than that?

[kurosawa]

The only problem with a total of 12 Faital 8s is $180 each. Even 6 is rough, but trading in a car is a much bigger hit.

I have a B100V (never got around to retubing it from the stock Chinese tubes but bought 4 GE 6L6GCs and NOS Tungsram Hungary ECC83 to retube) and a pair of AIMS 4-channel PA heads (pair of US Tung-Sol 6550As each). All 100w heads. Maybe I should sell 'em all and buy a bigger tube head.

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

make two 2 x 8 cabs like I said---one horizontal on the floor and the other vertical on top. Good floor coupling, nice height and little of the midrange problems associated with side by side drivers. But impedance is an issue. My EA Doubler had no problem with the 2 ohm load. Maybe a better option is, as you said 6 of the 8's. Do 2 cabs---still small and you have a nice somewhere around a 5.3 ohm load. Near flat to 5 k without a tweeter. And if you need a tweet the 8pr rolls off so nicely that you can cross over very high with a 6db/octave. And no low pass on the woofer. I hate passive low pass filters on woofers. Now I've given away all of the trade secrets.

Well actually I could build a cab that would fit my trunk with 4 of those 8s permanently configured as you describe, two along the bottom and above them, two vertically arranged right down the middle, like an equilateral triangle with a dot over the topmost apex. When cabs are that small and light, may as well make it totable by one handle as two. So that would be an 8 ohm cab, 2 series pairs in parallel.

But let me back up and ask you where the trouble comes from between the elements of a 410. There must be an optimum geometry here in this arrangement of 4.

And while we're looking at drivers that only want 2/3 cu ft, what's the deal with downfiring woofers? That's a huge potential space savings. Does the DFW want to see a hard surface below it, like built into the cab?

Or if there's nothing so special about a DFW, what about a half-hexagon shape (as seen from the top) with 2 drivers on each forward-facing facet? Or a cube with a driver on each side, hey how about left, right, front and top sides, the top for the player's own monitoring? It need not shoot straight up.

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

I have a B100V

The B100V combo or the B100VH head? I have one of the former but it's stoopid heavy so one of these days I'm going to separate the head and cab. Unfortunately tube amps get stoopid heavy over the 100w level IMO.

Oh, and DFW's are only useful in acoustic type gigs IMO - you really don't want to put energy into the floor or stage unless you're making mud pies instead of music .

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

The B100V combo or the B100VH head? I have one of the former but it's stoopid heavy so one of these days I'm going to separate the head and cab. Unfortunately tube amps get stoopid heavy over the 100w level IMO.

Oh, and DFW's are only useful in acoustic type gigs IMO - you really don't want to put energy into the floor or stage unless you're making mud pies instead of music .

Psh....

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

Psh....

Is that the noise you make when you rupture yourself carrying a 95 lb CL400 around ?

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

Is that the noise you make when you rupture yourself carrying a 95 lb CL400 around ?

You know its not un-manageable.

[Chef]

I've always found that 3-4 cheerleaders make short work of such things, and are generally fun to look at while you're playing.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by Chef

I've always found that 3-4 cheerleaders make short work of such things, and are generally fun to look at while you're playing.

There's a man who keeps his priorities straight

[kjpollo]

Originally Posted by davidjbass

A pic of me with Basswave's RS410t. I got one of the same coming my way in a couple of weeks. Can't wait. Thanks for letting me borrow it Tony. You might have to pry it from my hands to get it back.

David, we missed the heck out of you at the GTG and you missed Basswave's demo!
But it seems like you got the info anyway.

These are KILLER cabs and Im making plans for a 210T after the holidays.

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

The B100V combo or the B100VH head? I have one of the former but it's stoopid heavy so one of these days I'm going to separate the head and cab. Unfortunately tube amps get stoopid heavy over the 100w level IMO.

Oh, and DFW's are only useful in acoustic type gigs IMO - you really don't want to put energy into the floor or stage unless you're making mud pies instead of music .

The latter. It's light for a tube head, but I heard it's ultra finicky about impedance matching, burns up all its output tubes if it's not happy.

I thought about building a box for the 15PR400 I have on hand, but there must be some severe cheating on this Vas of 9.44 cu. ft. with, say, the Bassic. If I make the cab shallow as a Dual Showman, appx. 11" inside, and make it as wide inside as the speaker frame, 15.5", then it would have to be 8 feet tall, hardly a good fit for a Cobalt trunk. Well, if 1/2" ply, a 26 3/8" cube, and would 1/2" do it? Imagine a 215 built to that spec, 18.88 cu. ft., a REAL fridge.

I'll take your word on the DFWs, thanks!

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

...I would like to hear a 3x10 ported vertical column with those Faital drivers . In any case one of the "secrets" is to have a good amp that has a decent HPF in it, especially with the lower xmax drivers.

I don't understand how the port tuning frequency is decided on.

I could fit a 310 column in my trunk. The driver frames are 10.7" diameter. Presuming 1/2" walls, and having the drivers touching each other and the cab walls, the cab would be 11.7 wide x 31.9 tall x 17.3" deep (the flange is 1/2" thick so maybe 18" including a grille). That adds up to 2.67 ohms. If I could find an amp that would do 600w into 4 ohms and 1200 into 2, it ought to be in the neighborhood.

http://www.faitalpro.com/img/product..._datasheet.pdf

[astack]

Originally Posted by kurosawa

I thought about building a box for the 15PR400 I have on hand, but there must be some severe cheating on this Vas of 9.44 cu. ft. with, say, the Bassic. If I make the cab shallow as a Dual Showman, appx. 11" inside, and make it as wide inside as the speaker frame, 15.5", then it would have to be 8 feet tall, hardly a good fit for a Cobalt trunk. Well, if 1/2" ply, a 26 3/8" cube, and would 1/2" do it? Imagine a 215 built to that spec, 18.88 cu. ft., a REAL fridge.

Whoa, this is getting really OT. While we're OT though...

A speaker's Vas is not the volume you make the cab. The Vas is somewhat related to box size, but in the end it's just one factor of many in the equations.

If you're interested in learning what's available and the whys of box size and tuning, go download WinISD alpha and start messing around with it. It's a little clunky to get started, but once you're going, you can figure out a lot on your own. It'll pick some "ideal" box variables to start, then you go and change things to see what happens. Many times the ideal is pretty far from what a user would consider ideal. So shrink the box if it spits out 50cf. Sometimes the response blows up. Sometimes not much changes.

Here are things I've learned from the program:
The 10PR300 really is not suited for bass. It takes a very high tuning (~80Hz) to pull it's response down to even remotely BG territory (95Hz f3). And in exchange your power handling is mostly ruined.
The 8PR200, OTOH, is great but kind of has to be forced to work as a bass speaker. Mike and GB figured it out, but there's not a lot of room for error there. Even fdeck had problems getting it worked out.
The 15PR400 is right in the sweet spot for BG, so it's very forgiving/flexible. [i[Almost[/i] any box size from 2cf to 4cf and tuning from 30Hz to 50Hz would give workable results. I actually have the 15PR400 in a box with internal dimensions of 26.75 x 18.5 x 11.75 with a net Vb of about 3.1 cf, tuned to about 40 Hz. Works well for me, but not sure if it's all that trunkable.
The 12PR300 is actually another good option. Available in 4, 8, or 16 ohm and it has the GB stamp of approval. I'm thinking 3.5 cf tuned to 50 Hz. That gives you 60 Hz f3. Make it a vertical 2x12 and you've got a winner.
Deltalites or Basslites in a 2cf sealed box is another option. Lots of output in a small box and it's supposedly more tube amp friendly. And indecently models the closest to an actual fridge of these options.
Now, if you're serious about shrinking your rig, the 5FE120 5" speaker models great in a 6" cube But you need 8 to keep up with a 15PR400 output wise.

/OT