Xsonics 212CF FIRST GIG IMPRESSIONS

[will33]

Ya know, I can look at a cab design such as this and the drivers it contains, especially since they are not some "super secret" OEM job, (which most don't vary from stock all that much, it's just that their differences usually happen in an area where our ears are most sensitive), and figure I would probably like the sound of these cabs. Yes, the box is small, which will limit lowend extension...and yes, one driver is firing imto a chamber, which will filter out some of it's topend response, a bit like a form of bandpass. Depending on how the chamber is done, it may sound a bit like a .5 alignment, sometimes used to increase dispersiin in cabs with drivers mounted side by side, and sometimes used in hifi, even with vertical driver alignment, to help compensate for baffle step. And yes, due to the motor structure diffracting the drivers upper response, it will sound sifferent facing it the opposite way, both for that reason and sue to adding it's volume back into the box. I think it would be worthwhile experimenting with a design like this (or the Glasstones) for use with my DL2's. It would "smooth out" their climbing response.
So, I think these things may have a default voice more similair to how I usually bend other cabs into shape with eq. That is to reduce low bass alightly (the small box), bump some lowmids for fat tone, (again the small box effect/highbass hump), and enjoy good dispersion of the uppeemids (single driver carrying those/conical dispersion pattern). So, the people who just listen and like what they hear may very well enjoy this cab, as I likely would.


All that said, I wouldn't be being honest with myself if I didn't back up Seamonkey on this one. Basic 1/2 space spl measurements don't require much test equipment, or an expensive anechoic chamber yo perform. computer modeled "clean bass" (xmax) and mechanical damage (xlim) predictions are usually pretty accurate and people ahouldn't get jumped for asking about, or expecting such a thing. Not saying make it your front page sales pitch, but a page at the back of the manual would be nice. A laymens explanation about room interactions and how a vibrating atring signal isn't a sinewave wouldn't hurt either. Some say "well more specs just confuse people". I say "why not educate rather than leave folks in the dark, all the while leaving the door wide open for the sheisters of the world. Ya know, some of us were labeled naysayers, or told "how could you know when you haven't heard it" in the repeatedly bumped by a very few people, mile lomg imfomercial that is the Glasstone thread. BFM once said "and engineer can read data much like a concert musician can read a score and know how it's goimg to sound before they hear it". I don't claim to have that high a level of expertise, but I know enough to be able to look at that data and know that this cab is likely to be in my ballpark tonewise. So, no harm done and much good done from putting that data out there, it won't change one single thing about how it sounds to those who use their ears only. It may even help to educate folks understand what it really is that they want from a sound system, and may even help them to realize companoes who make unfoundes statements like "our stuff can reach 28hz and do 130db, man" are blowing smoke up their collective hindends on the way to the bank.

Good luck with any of us seeing that though, the lomger they keep people in the dark and feed them fantastic claims while they eat it up not even knowing they're being led astray, the more tjey'll keep hising the real data, making it up, or not even performing measurements at all

[will33]

And if anybody wants to go throigh and correct all those typos, feel free. Much too difficult on thos POS phone.

[Blues Cat]

Originally Posted by will33

And if anybody wants to go throigh and correct all those typos, feel free. Much too difficult on thos POS phone.

Yeah I gave up. Paragraphs help with attention spans. Not trying to be rude.

[Brad Johnson]

The Glasstone 'infomercial" is largely populated by gigging Glasstone owners. And more people are being suckered into checking out a cab that they're finding works well for their gigs. Granted, some of them probably only became gullible once they abandoned the previous gold standard TB cab.

As far as asking for plots, when did that become mandatory for a cab that works? As far as I can tell nobody's saying specs confuse people... OTOH some are acting like you should ignore your ears until you see the test results. That's funny.

There are no complete specs on either of these cabs... so an engineer with no data to read does what? Condemn? Dismiss them as gimmicks? Nobody has modeled either of them. So I'd guess this would be like a concert musician with a small fraction of the score. Go for it.


I look forward to hearing one of these cabs. Let me know when you're gigging in the DC area, Dennis and I'll come by and listen to it. That's still good enough for me.

[Fretlessboy]

Originally Posted by Blues Cat

Whoa. It's nice to see you designing with your ears and not computer simulation. Nothing against comp sim, I just like you're approach.

I just play them... I don't design them

[Blues Cat]

Originally Posted by Fretlessboy

I just play them... I don't design them

Sorry Fretless, that was directed at Ncognito

[Fretlessboy]

Blues Cat... I figured . But I do just play'em... And bitch about them when they suck.

[Fretlessboy]

Brad... I will let you know when I hit D.C.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Blues Cat

Yeah I gave up. Paragraphs help with attention spans. Not trying to be rude.

I get it, this thing is completely frustrating.

[bb03]

Originally Posted by Blues Cat

Yeah I gave up. Paragraphs help with attention spans. Not trying to be rude.

Yeah...c'mon Will!

You always have good, reasoned postings. Clean this one up for us.

[Ncognito]

Originally Posted by Blues Cat

Whoa. It's nice to see you designing with your ears and not computer simulation. Nothing against comp sim, I just like you're approach.

Thanks Blues Cat for the kind words. It's appreciated. I have WinISD. It's a terrific tool and certainly can get you in the right zip code. I've earned a living with my degree in music playing bass for over 30 years and right around 5,000 paying gigs. Not bragging, just facts. I know what great bass sounds like because I play it 3-7 nights a week since 1981. My profile is there to be seen as I don't have to hide like some on this board. Makes me wonder when some fellow talkbassers have NOTHING on their profile. Done nothing? Hiding something? False indentity? Very interesting indeed. My products are excellent tools that are finding their way to the best mechanics who can appreciate them. I offer a 72 hour approval period. How is it possible to argue that???????

[Fretlessboy]

Most excellent tools. I play them cause they kick ass... 215cf coming

[lo-freq]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Sure - WinISD can and it's free.
The drivers facing in or out is simply changing how much volume/space is in the cabinet. Anybody with any cab can flip the woofer facing out and increase the cubic inches in the cab. Take the measurements and see.

This design essentially wastes a driver. The cabinet is too small for 2 drivers. Good science in the fEARfull which has it's origins in this forum. fEARfull has measurements to prove its science.

The builder doesn't know isobaric from bandpass. At the same time he's probably had many more site visits now that there's some controversy over this design. There really isn't a controversy. It's not a design any company with acoustic engineers would ever design.

It's not up to me to prove anything. It's like making a claim to have created cold fusion, and then selling tanks with no proof it works. I don't care how many people buy into it and believe it works. If there's no proof, and no science it doesn't matter. I also don't own premium Monster cables, and don't need any experience with them either to know they offer no advantage.

I'm not an engineer and not looking for an argument, I'm just asking: WinISD can model what's coming off the backside of the inverted speaker and its contribution to the forward facing speaker?

Also, just as a general comment aimed to all involved in this thread, before it does get out-of-hand, it might be nice for once to actually follow the TB rule about showing some respect for one another in the midst of our discussions and debates. It would be truly refreshing and might avoid getting the thread shutdown unnecessarily.
It is more than fine to disagree, just try not to be disagreeable or disparaging.
Not saying anyone has done that already, just a preemptive move to avoid a trainwreck.
Thank you one and all!



Peace, Love, and ...where's my flamesuit?

[Mike Arnopol]

Nick and I spoke a few weeks ago. Good guy.

His speakers and mine are very different and shooting for different markets. I haven't heard his speakers but I have a good idea what they'll sound like. From talking it seems like he's looked into this type of design and used his ears and experience to refine it. Maybe it's not my cup of tea but what it is is a cabinet with gigging in mind. Not cranking it in the living room and over analyzing.
Most cabs with big low end extension are problematic on gigs. This is a cab that is designed to cut. Even without hearing it I know that it's going to be super punchy and from talking to Nick I believe he's avoided the pitfalls with other speakers of similar design.He and I will eventually get together and play both of our cabs.

I'm just chiming in to support another builder who has gigging experience and has designed a cab to fit many players gigging needs.

I don't know any small builders who are doing this to get rich. Just a bunch of gearheads tring to find equipment to make a more enjoyable gigging experience. That's what drew me back into making cabs.

[::::BASSIST::::]

My personal opinion is that, if you are in the market for a new cab and portability is a concern, checking out new offerings is worth the effort. Otherwise you may miss something quite innovative.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

Nick and I spoke a few weeks ago. Good guy.

His speakers and mine are very different and shooting for different markets. I haven't heard his speakers but I have a good idea what they'll sound like. From talking it seems like he's looked into this type of design and used his ears and experience to refine it. Maybe it's not my cup of tea but what it is is a cabinet with gigging in mind. Not cranking it in the living room and over analyzing.
Most cabs with big low end extension are problematic on gigs. This is a cab that is designed to cut. Even without hearing it I know that it's going to be super punchy and from talking to Nick I believe he's avoided the pitfalls with other speakers of similar design.He and I will eventually get together and play both of our cabs.

I'm just chiming in to support another builder who has gigging experience and has designed a cab to fit many players gigging needs.

I don't know any small builders who are doing this to get rich. Just a bunch of gearheads tring to find equipment to make a more enjoyable gigging experience. That's what drew me back into making cabs.

Well said. You, sir, are a stand up dude.

[Vince Klortho]

My thought exactly !

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Unless someone has modeled a cab of this design, they don't really know what it'll do. They know what they think it'll do based on guesses based on different designs. The problem with that should be pretty obvious. They don't really know the effects of using this particular design.

I allready explained in the beginning of this thread(or the other Xsonics thread) what this particular design(push-pull/bandpass hybrid) will do and what not (I will not repeat it here, just read through the thread if you want to know).

Just like a lot of bassplayers here say that they play 24/7 and know how bass has to sound, I can say that I create a design for 90% in my head and pretty much know how it will sound allthough I haven't simulated or build anything yet. Thats what people call "experience" or "expertise" (I started with building and experimenting when I was 12 or so... )

I agree with Seamonkey and totally understand why he writes this.

[Ncognito]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

Nick and I spoke a few weeks ago. Good guy.

His speakers and mine are very different and shooting for different markets. I haven't heard his speakers but I have a good idea what they'll sound like. From talking it seems like he's looked into this type of design and used his ears and experience to refine it. Maybe it's not my cup of tea but what it is is a cabinet with gigging in mind. Not cranking it in the living room and over analyzing.
Most cabs with big low end extension are problematic on gigs. This is a cab that is designed to cut. Even without hearing it I know that it's going to be super punchy and from talking to Nick I believe he's avoided the pitfalls with other speakers of similar design.He and I will eventually get together and play both of our cabs.

I'm just chiming in to support another builder who has gigging experience and has designed a cab to fit many players gigging needs.

I don't know any small builders who are doing this to get rich. Just a bunch of gearheads tring to find equipment to make a more enjoyable gigging experience. That's what drew me back into making cabs.

You are a stand-up guy Mike. Thank you for your input and un-selfish support! Your post speaks volumes about you!

As said correctly, I'm certainly not gonna get rich building bass cabinets. What I do offer is a super compact cabinet being raved about by 4 very respected touring bass players (who bought and paid for their cabinets with no compensation from me) and 11 total users that comes with a money back guarantee. It works!!! As with any cabinet, it can't do it all, but what the Xsonics does, it does VERY well. Don't believe me, watch the videos or talk to the talkbassers that are using Xsonics!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y9cteHCYt8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GTQxBdk2E8

This is the cabinet I tried to find for the past 10 years or so. I do over 125 gigs any given year so size means a lot, but I won't sacrifice sound. The Xsonics CF really works for me and I wanted to pass it on to my fellow bassplayers and just not lose money. I'm hoping to make life a little easier and save your back without compromising on tone. If you don't like my cabinet for any reason you can return it. How and why would anyone argue that.

Remember: “Aerodynamically, the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly, but the bumble bee doesn't know it so it goes on flying anyway.” --Mary Kay Ash

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by Ncognito

As said correctly, I'm certainly not gonna get rich building bass cabinets. What I do offer is a super compact cabinet being raved about by 4 very respected touring bass players (who bought and paid for their cabinets with no compensation from me) and 11 total users that comes with a money back guarantee. It works!!! As with any cabinet, it can't do it all, but what the Xsonics does, it does VERY well. Don't believe me, watch the videos or talk to the talkbassers

Well said.
Same here, I will never be getting rich building basscabs.
If you have convinced yourself that you have a good product it's great that you want to share it with others. The feeling alone that other people are playin' your stuff and like it, makes it worth the effort.