Change out pickups in my Roscoe Fretless?

[Robin Ruscio]

I have an absolutely awesome sounding 5 string SKB 3005 fretless. Diamondwood board, box elder burl top, cedar body, maple neck.

It's a great bass that get tons of compliments from tone, most recently from a new Roscoe dealer in town, who told me I should never sell.

I just put DR Sunbeams on and it's even better- so much so that one of my bands was just flipping on it, including the vocalist. You know it's good when the singer can tell through a crappy PA.

My only thought with the Sunbeams is that they are bringing out the low mids more, and a little darker than the D'addario XL's I had on before. I'm wishing it had a little bit more of an open tone sometimes. It's musical sounding but a touch rounder, like there's a tone knob that's been rolled back.

I also have been playing a new to me fretted Fodera and getting used to the tonal variations in that pre, as well as the more open sounding pickups in the bass.

I've been thinking of trying some Nordstrand pickups and maybe even a new pre to open it up a bit. Everything I 've heard of them on clips is impressive and up my ally tonally- I have a bass with Big Singles on order. The Bart's are OK but I have been playing a lot of basses with Barts lately and really gotten sensitized to how they can darken the tone of basses, for better or worse.

I know the Nord's would have to be custom, and was thinking of trying either the Fat Stacks or Dual Coils, maybe adding a coil switch as well so they can go single coil. I also was thinking of trying the Mike Pope Flexcore pre which is like what I have in the Fodera.

Any thoughts? Which Nords might I try? Anyone with experience with a fretless Roscoe pickup swap? I'm assuming that changing the Pups would the the first stop for the biggest change, and then I could go further with the pre if I wanted to.

[Robin Ruscio]

Quick follow up already:

I was just A/Bing the Bart pre on or in passive by bypass, and I actually liked the tone better in the bypass'd mode as it has little more clarity to it- more high end or upper mids I think, or perhaps less low mids.

That's not usually what I think of when bypassing an active pre, usually the bass gets darker due to the impedance changing, I think from what little I know about electronics. My Sadowsky and Foders definitely lose a little high end sizzle (in am musical way) when they are run passive, which can be a nice option. Sort of like turning down the tone control.

This seems to be the opposite, which is counter intuitive. Makes me think the Bart pre is really voiced on the dark side. Perhaps I should start by changing that out, or just figure I need to do both at the same time to get what I'm hearing all the way? I would just run the bass passive all the time but there's nary a tone knob, and I could use some EQ to nudge a good sound in the right direction.



I w

[Jeff Moote]

The consensus seems to be that the Nords or Bartolini CBs (stock on the Roscoe Standard/Standard Plus models, optional on the others) are a more open sounding alternative to the normal Roscoe Barts. That matches my experience, though I haven't heard the same bass with different electronics so there has always been other variables involved (wood, etc.).

My SKB has Nordstrand DC5s and an Audere preamp. I've been thinking lately about swapping the preamp to a Bartolini NTMB, since I no longer need that bass to cover the same tonal ground it did when I ordered it. I am looking for more of the classic Roscoe tone which is certainly a bit darker.

[VroomVroom]

I'm confused. You've got a bass that is knocking out everyone...to the extent a vocalist is impressed....and you want to change pickups based on new strings?

Three options:
1. Got back to the D'Adds.
2. Bias the bridge pickup just a bit, or boost the upper mids by the same.
3. Wait for the Sunbeams to mellow a bit...perhaps another hour of playing time.

[Robin Ruscio]

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

I'm confused. You've got a bass that is knocking out everyone...to the extent a vocalist is impressed....and you want to change pickups based on new strings?

Three options:
1. Got back to the D'Adds.
2. Bias the bridge pickup just a bit, or boost the upper mids by the same.
3. Wait for the Sunbeams to mellow a bit...perhaps another hour of playing time.

I can see why that sounds contradictory, but trust me, the sound is there, it's just that the "mic" is not capturing it the best way with the new strings. I like the tone better with the pre bypassed, which tells me I'm on the right track.

I'm going to take something that is already awesome to the next level. Part of this is me rethinking this bass a little with the new strings. One change made me think about other areas that might be up for improvement.

The bass sounds killer, the Sunbeam strings sound way better than the D'adds (try them on your fretless). It's just a little murky and I'm sure it's the pickups/pre. Already running it on the bridge pickup full on. Both pickups is a little too dark at this time; that's one of the reasons I think there is some room for improvement.

I would love to add some hi-mids but that's not where the Bart mid switch is voiced. That's why I'm leaning towards a pre that has selectable mids. (Yeah, I could do it form the amp, but I use this bass in many amp less situations and like to be able to dial things in on the fly!~)

The sunbeams have already been broken in nicely.

[Jeff Moote]

The Bartolini preamp should have a push/pull mid knob switching between 250 Hz and 850 Hz centers. By most definitions those are pretty normal "low mid" and "high mid" frequencies.

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by Robin Ruscio

I can see why that sounds contradictory, but trust me, the sound is there, it's just that the "mic" is not capturing it the best way with the new strings. I like the tone better with the pre bypassed, which tells me I'm on the right track.

How are you bypassing the internal pre? I've never heard of that being possible on a Roscoe.

Originally Posted by Robin Ruscio

The bass sounds killer, the Sunbeam strings sound way better than the D'adds (try them on your fretless). It's just a little murky and I'm sure it's the pickups/pre. Already running it on the bridge pickup full on. Both pickups is a little too dark at this time; that's one of the reasons I think there is some room for improvement. .

Jerry's probably ran every brand of string made by now with his CDO and all.

But I too am confused at your contradictory statements. On one hand you say the bass sounds great, yet you seem to have a laundry list of things you want to change.

Originally Posted by Robin Ruscio

I would love to add some hi-mids but that's not where the Bart mid switch is voiced. That's why I'm leaning towards a pre that has selectable mids. (Yeah, I could do it form the amp, but I use this bass in many amp less situations and like to be able to dial things in on the fly!~)

The sunbeams have already been broken in nicely.

Be forewarned that changing internals (pickups/pre) can be a costly and slippery slope. You end up losing one part of the tone to get to the other.

I'd personally start by changing string brands/types.



God Bless, Ray

[eo.]

Based on what you're saying I'd swap the pre for something more neutral like the aggie. The low mid thing the roscoe barts do is special, but IMHO the combo with the bart preamp is a little congested. If you definitely want more top then the CB's are a good choice but if you just want a little more low mid clarity while maintaining the low mid punch of the roscoe barts then I'd change the pre rather than the pups-- particularly since you like the tone with the preamp bypassed.

[Robin Ruscio]

Originally Posted by LilRay

How are you bypassing the internal pre? I've never heard of that being possible on a Roscoe.



Jerry's probably ran every brand of string made by now with his CDO and all.

But I too am confused at your contradictory statements. On one hand you say the bass sounds great, yet you seem to have a laundry list of things you want to change.



Be forewarned that changing internals (pickups/pre) can be a costly and slippery slope. You end up losing one part of the tone to get to the other.

I'd personally start by changing string brands/types.



God Bless, Ray

Ok, I'm a doofus- what I thought was an active/passive pull is actually a mid range select. I have previously been cautious about changing my mids until recently so it was usually flat.

I guess I can't say how the Bart pre is coloring the sound, then, since there's no way to run it passive after all.

Too be clear, these Sunbeam strings are amazing and are probably the best strings/bass combo I've ever found. I wish I felt this confident about my string choice on my other basses.The have an amazing "mwah" growl too them, i think because they are just a bit springier than the hex core D'adds. They are just playing into the low mid bump of the Bart pre/pups a bit. It's slightly dark woods into alow mid bump strings into low mid bump pups/pre.

Now that I can add some hi mids, this is seeming am much more workable combination, though I'm still thinking of changing some things around in the electronics. I'm not saying that I'm completely unhappy with the sound of this bass, I'm just trying to take it from a 9.5 to a 10. The string took it from 9 to a 9.5.

I'm going to post some clips in a sec so you can hear it yourself.

[Robin Ruscio]

Ok, after listening to this recorded, I'm probably messing with a good thing.

Check it out:
Roscoe Fretless Bass Sample | Robin Ruscio

I can't believe I didn't notice there was a mid select pull. I just thought it was an active bypass and never even used it since my battery never died, so I've been stuck with lo mids this whole time! Glad I mentioned this here! You guys are awesome resources.

[Gard]

Originally Posted by Robin Ruscio

Ok, after listening to this recorded, I'm probably messing with a good thing.

Check it out:
Roscoe Fretless Bass Sample | Robin Ruscio

I can't believe I didn't notice there was a mid select pull. I just thought it was an active bypass and never even used it since my battery never died, so I've been stuck with lo mids this whole time! Glad I mentioned this here! You guys are awesome resources.

I see I got here just in time with this typical wise-@$$ suggestion:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!



Sounds like you figured it all out Robin, sorry I didn't chip in sooner, but as usual, the Roscoehead Nation was on the ball and got you pointed in the right direction without any input from me...good work guys!

[nostatic]

Another thing would be to try Fodera nickel strings. I prefer them over Sunbeams (or anything else at the moment) but I never tried them on a Roscoe.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by Gard

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Of course, around here (Talkbass) one might say if it ain't broke, you haven't messed with it enough!

I think the bass in the OP sounds great, but I can totally relate to the quest for something just a bit different in the hope that I'll like it better. Ultimately, most people (say, the rest of the band and the audience) aren't going to know the difference between different pickups, or even basses most of the time. That doesn't stop us from obsessing over them

[ubone]

Personally, I'd rather just play my basses, and let my fingers find the tone...

[Robin Ruscio]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Another thing would be to try Fodera nickel strings. I prefer them over Sunbeams (or anything else at the moment) but I never tried them on a Roscoe.

I just tried Fodera nickels for the first time on my Fodera, they were nice but a little loose. I have a set of Sunmbeams going on the Fodera next string change, so that will give me some info on how those two sets compare. I think the Fodera's are a bit brighter.

[Robin Ruscio]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

Of course, around here (Talkbass) one might say if it ain't broke, you haven't messed with it enough!

I think the bass in the OP sounds great, but I can totally relate to the quest for something just a bit different in the hope that I'll like it better. Ultimately, most people (say, the rest of the band and the audience) aren't going to know the difference between different pickups, or even basses most of the time. That doesn't stop us from obsessing over them

There's always the question of whether all this messing around changes things objectively to the audience, but I feel that part of my artistic growth is to continue to refine my sound, be it through my technique or my gear. And the people who actually employ me are other musicians, and I'm fortunate that many of them are pretty savvy themselves and appreciate the extra effort I put into bringing top notch gear. I had an MD once tell me that he looking more for a "Mark Egan" fretless tone rather than a "Jaco" sound, and that was not a small gig.

Anther thing I'm big on is questioning assumptions I've made from time to time about all aspects of music, so this is just part of that process. Trying to keep some "beginners mind" about gear choices I've made in the past and make sure I'm not just becoming complacent out of laziness. Ever see guys who've been hauling around an old polytone from 1982 still claiming it's state of the art?

[Robin Ruscio]

Jeff Moote has offered to trade me his Nordstrand Dual Coils from his Roscoe on a trial basis. I'll install them and give them a whirl, including a little recording like I did with my Barts. If I don't like them, he's gracious enough to take them back.



Big thanks to Jeff, and those of you who are interested be sure to check back in a few weeks for another audio clip! Nothing like and a/b to settle things.

[Jeff Moote]

Digging through some old threads I found this one, which has lots of relevant commentary to this discussion: Roscoes with,.. uh, different pickups....

On the other hand, since Robin now has the DC5s we'll get to find out in this case which pickups are "the sound" for this particular bass/player/etc.

[ftssjk]

also consider delano pickups.

personally i'd just stick to the barts.

[Robin Ruscio]

The Nords are being installed as we speak. There were some delays because they were slightly larger than the pickup cavities on the bass. I'm pretty confident I will like them more and they will keepers, so my tech is going to open the cavities up and install them this week.