I blame Snaxster...and Gard

VroomVroom · #1 03-04-2009, 11:38 AM

...for my new obsession. Actually, this is one of those things I've been telling myself I'll do for over a year now, but Snaxster - with his great recordings - and Gard - with his comment about digging into it himself - finally got me to pull the trigger.

What the heck am I talking about? Laptop recording.

Yesterday I picked up an M-Audio Fast Track USB setup. $100, bada boom. I looked closely at the Digidesign MBox 2 Mini but couldn't justify the expense. (And, selfishly/honestly...I'm hoping that because these guys are a few blocks away from where I work, I may be able to score a discount on a future purchase.

) Basically, I could justify the $100, knowing I could return it the next day if it didn't work well.

And work well it does. Had some frustrating software install & device config issues...as an IT guy this stuff bugs me, especially since M-Audio's support forum is filled with complaints...but once I got past those everything was happy-happy. The device comes with their "Session" software, which is perfect for a newbie/dummy like me. Very easy to use, ultra-intuitive, and more than powerful enough for the basic stuff I'll be doing. Certainly no ProTools, but since I'm an absolute hack in that application, I'm okay with that.

So...results. I only had a brief time to play with the device last night. I plugged the Roscoe right in to the Fast Track. The sound was good overall, but a bit too compressed for my tastes, and I'll soon compare it with the tone from using my trusty Radial JDI. The track below has the bass EQ fully flat, with the blend @ center detent (just the way I like it

). This took about 25 minutes from beginning to end...selecting 32 bars of drums, keys, & guitar tracks, playing along to catch the "chorus" changes, recording two passes (the first was a suck), and then exporting to a .wav file and, finally, normalizing and exporting to .mp3 in Audacity. Here we go:

Roscoe funky track

Still have some learning to do with the software, but the soft manual & tutorials seem to be pretty neat. I suspect this thing will be more powerful than my needs for some time to come. As a practice tool - particularly for anyone who gets nervous in the studio - I think it's going to be outstanding. For laying down ideas and rough cuts I suspect it'll be terrific as well, although it seems like a MIDI keyboard or other controller will be a necessity. The results will never be mistaken for audiophile quality, but for the investment I think it's a great tool.

I'd love to hear what other Roscoeheads are doing with this kind of stuff. Please share your experiences, and of course your sound files!

Gard · #2 03-04-2009, 12:46 PM

OK Jerry, you just gave me two problems....

1) Now I'm going to have to save up all my pennies and nickels and buy myself that gizmo and figure out how to use it...(does it work with XP?)

2) My leg won't stop...

VroomVroom · #3 03-04-2009, 12:56 PM

LOL!

Gard, it's really easy to use. And it works great on XP - you'll just need SP2 or greater. I had some installation hurdles, but now that I know how to get past them, it's a breeze (I installed on a third PC to confirm). Basically, there are two files you'll want to download before installing. One is a device driver, and the second is a newer version of the 'Session' software. You'll still use the CD that comes with the package, but only to load all of the samples. I'm more than happy to help if you decide to go with one of these things. It's addicting!

Snaxster · #4 03-04-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

...for my new obsession. Actually, this is one of those things I've been telling myself I'll do for over a year now, but Snaxster - with his great recordings - and Gard - with his comment about digging into it himself - finally got me to pull the trigger.

What the heck am I talking about? Laptop recording....

Roscoe funky track

Glad to be of service, Jerry.

But hey -- congratulations on taking the leap. Home recording is where it's at, man.

Constraints are where it's at, too, since they make us work harder and more creatively. And for most of us, home recording setups are defined by constraint rather than flexibility.

In your first outing, I think your recorded bass sound is quite good. It very much highlights the instrument, as I think you intended. It is 'rich and thick' for sure!

I recently opined that "mastering is the final frontier." Well I still think it is, and implicit in that is mixing, and in that, tracking. This time around I find myself wearing my producer's hat more than my bassist's hat as I record at home. This forces me to decide differently about my recorded bass sounds, how the bass fits into final mixes and eventual mastering. Even when I'm making pieces whose purpose is to feature a certain instrument, I apply that discipline.

My home studio is far more elaborate than yours (think 'crazy person'.) But give it time -- you'll be looking for room for new gear before long.

Here is a snapshot from December, and one that shows the newly arrived UA LA-610 MkII:

I also have a set of ADAM monitors and subwoofer that I have yet to integrate into the studio. Believe it or not, I work mostly in headphones for now.

Keep recording! If I can ever advise on studio equipment selection or approaches to making good-sounding recordings, please let me know (disclaimer: my advice will be worth what you pay for it.)

Snaxster

VroomVroom · #5 03-04-2009, 02:23 PM

Woooooooohhhhh....look at that 610 action! What an awesome rig, Snaxster! I definitely appreciate the offer of your advice, and will try my best not to abuse it.

Obviously, by comparison, I'm just entering nursery school as you're polishing your PhD. This is really fun, and like just about everything else I start digging into (you should talk to my wife about my ventures into photography gear...actually, maybe you shouldn't) I imagine there will be some upgrades as I learn more.

Basso Gruvitas · #6 03-04-2009, 02:46 PM

Paula and Randy liked it, but Simon.......

Just kidding!

Sounds great!

VroomVroom · #7 03-04-2009, 02:48 PM

Hey, Randy's an awesome bassist, so as long as he likes it I'm happy.

Gard · #8 03-04-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

Hey, Randy's an awesome bassist, so as long as he likes it I'm happy.

Dawg, like, that was HIP DAWG....you got your thing, you just need to keep working that thing....dawg...

(...funny story, I used to hang in a few clubs in Baton Rouge, LA as a kid, and had a "nodding acquaintance" with Randy...until he made it big...he wouldn't know me from the Poachdog these days I'm sure, but he was a decent dude, and from what I've heard still is.)

Big Mother · #9 03-04-2009, 05:47 PM

I concur with all said by Snaxster.
It can be very addicting, challenging, and incredibly rewarding.
I started doing the home recordist thing about 8 years ago. Gear kept accumulating, my skills kept evolving, my ears (hearing) changed, bands and artists outside of my band started wanting to do stuff, etc etc.
Now I am an engineer/owning partner at a little studio here in Seattle and love it.
Wait and see, the bug will bite you and you will fall in love with it.

Nice work, sounds very good.
Record everything!

BM

youngs · #10 03-05-2009, 12:01 AM

I'd love to hear what other Roscoeheads are doing with this kind of stuff. Please share your experiences, and of course your sound files![/quote]

well played bro. I like the tone.

http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=104917

This is LG3005 with Nord/Audere.

if it's not working , here's the same clip.

clanpain.com/ROSCOE/LG3005.mp3

VroomVroom · #11 03-05-2009, 12:24 PM

Good grief...I've been getting a 'maintenance' message all morning @ icompositions. I'll keep checking back and am looking forward to hearing the file!

I'm guessing that the bug will get me...at least a bit...but I'm not sure I see myself digging too far into it. I'm really happy being just the bass player.

I'm seeing this as a great way to get rough ideas into digital (and hopefully musical) format, and as a practice/rehearsal tool. No real goals beyond that, at least at this point.

VroomVroom · #12 03-05-2009, 02:36 PM

YES! Youngs...awesome stuff. Wicked thumb chops and an outstanding solo. The bass sounds incredible and I love your playing. Thanks for sharing that one!

youngs · #13 03-05-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

YES! Youngs...awesome stuff. Wicked thumb chops and an outstanding solo. The bass sounds incredible and I love your playing. Thanks for sharing that one!

Thanks a lot bro, but somehow your playing sounds far better than mine

RocketMusic · #14 03-05-2009, 03:03 PM

Wow, youngs - super feel, man! And your recorded bass tone gets my vote for the best so far. Deep, crisp, articulate. I LOVE it, man. (And don't get me wrong, they ALL sound great).

youngs · #15 03-06-2009, 06:30 AM

thanks, and I agree with you. They all sound great.

SteveC · #16 03-06-2009, 07:27 AM

Didn't help my GAS any. I still need a good fretless.

VroomVroom · #17 03-06-2009, 08:35 AM

Ok, learning my way around a bit more. The DI is a MUST...holy cow, what a difference! Here's a cut from last night. If you can make it through the first 40 seconds, hopefully it'll be interesting. This sounds like my Roscoe! Much more so than the first effort. I went for too many low notes near the end of the solo, so it clips worse than a bad stylist at SuperCuts, but otherwise I'm really happy with the sound.

3006 fretted - Latin action

And, off topic, but here's another effort with...ahhh...a Roscoe wannabe.

Greasy thumb thing

RocketMusic · #18 03-06-2009, 09:23 AM

Nice, Jerry. Yep, big tone improvement. Sounds incredible! And the playing... oh, man... I don't know whether to be bummed or stoked. I want to be able to do that, dammit!!

Snaxster · #19 03-06-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

...This sounds like my Roscoe! Much more so than the first effort... I'm really happy with the sound.

3006 fretted - Latin action

Well done, Jerry. Now you have a new baseline for your own use (not a bass line... hahahaha!) in judging your self-recordings of your (Roscoe fretted 6-string) bass playing. Other baselines may follow, but you can always refer to this one.

Your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to imagine that you are not you yourself and that you have to capture Jerry's bass playing in a recording for the exact purpose of its role within an arrangement, wherein the only material objective is the final mix; the expression of the arrangement by the mix.

Producers and most recordists normally have this as their mission, and they apply it to each sound they record toward a final product. But when it comes to recording, musicians are notorious for their inability to summon in themselves the particular objectivity needed to imagine their own playing in an important but subordinate role within a larger arrangement. Even players who are expert at this in performance often fall right down in the studio, most of all the control room (if they're allowed in!)

Though there isn't only one ideal for the incorporation of instrumental elements into a recording, certain best practices are nearly universally applicable. Recording musicians who understand and appreciate the theory will tend to play differently in practice.

Meanwhile, back on Earth... the practice consists mainly of the understanding of

1. how the sound of your playing differs in various contexts (physical source, musical setting, physical result), and

2. the lack of correlation between your intent when you played and the final physical result (the subsequent presentation of the recording of what you played.)

2 is the hardest to master because it challenges our sense of self as a player. Even players who have a good sense of 1 can find it difficult to accept 2. Sure signs of this are comments like "Nice mix, but that doesn't sound like my bass" or "Yes, it sounds like me playing, but I know I dialed in more low end than that."

I am convinced that the great recording musicians, especially session players, all have/had their personal preferences. But what distinguishes them (in addition to their chops, reading, professionalism, etc.) is their understanding of those factors.

Thus endeth my sermon for the day.

I am not well acquainted with your musical focus or background, but from the little of your playing and comments I have the pleasure of hearing, I think the following recordings will interest you. They both feature 6-string fretted bass players in very structured Latin arrangements:

The album "Evolución" by Luis Enrique, featuring Omar Hernandez on bass (check out the tracks "Que Sé Yo", "Alma Rosa (versión en salsa)", "Sé Feliz", "Tú Me Amas (Sabor Locura)" and "Plantar Bandera".) Those tracks are mostly a type of nuevo-salsa; they push the envelope a bit, and with good musical results I think. Omar Hernandez is all over the neck on this album, but only a musician would notice it. He does whatever job needs being done at that moment on that track. Both aggressive and understated, his approach is impressively comprehensive and always effective. Of special interest to you, I think, is his sound; it is most like what I've heard you going for and in application meets all my criteria for integration into a mix.

The album "Vivo" by Luis Miguel, featuring Lalo Carrillo on bass (check out the tracks "Quiero", "Tu Solo Tu", "Suave", "Sol, Arena y Mar" and "Como Es Posible Que a Mi Lado".) Those tracks are basically Latin-tinged American-style pop; but oh, the playing. On my hearing this album, Lalo Carrillo became my favorite contrabass guitarist after Anthony Jackson. I have so much respect for this man's accomplishment. Carrillo is a compositional player in the spirit of Jamerson and with modern chops on tap to support any idea he may have; all in service of the arrangement, structurally, sonically, melodically. A "perfect" musician, in my view. Though Carrillo's sound here is less like yours than Omar Hernandez's, and though this is a live recording (however lavish a production), he meets and surpasses my criteria and is well worth studying.

I hope this will be useful to you!

Looking forward to your next efforts,

Snaxster

VroomVroom · #20 03-06-2009, 02:54 PM

Awesome post, Snaxster - thanks!

Working backward... I'm familiar with both players, although I need to hear the Luis Enrique recording. I've actually played "Suave" and "Tu Solo Tu" - great songs. Now, the players. Both are drunk. Omar Hernandez is a beast and I love him. Lalo Carrillo, though, is just on another level. He's been one of my favorites for quite a long time. I equate him to Lincoln Goines, and the comparison goes beyond the genres for which they're both best known. Taste, taste, and more taste....with all of the chops in the world held in reserve for only when they're needed. It's so awesome to talk about these guys, because they're both "musician's musicians," if that makes sense. Not many people are familiar with them or just how much amazing music they've made over the years. Plus, Lalo wears his bass high, like I do.

You really touch on a lot of topics, making great points along the way. I should probably reiterate that my goal - and the focus of my efforts - with this new endeavor is very selfish, and fairly superficial. I like to think I'm somewhat objective when it comes to working with leaders (live) and producers (studio...although sometimes the personnel is the same). That said, especially with recording projects, I often face harsh reminders that less is more and the personality of my playing is a function of the artist/leader, not just me.

Accordingly, I hope you hear in these little amateurish recordings that my playing is of the, "What the hell, let's have fun!" nature, as opposed to anything I'd do on a "real" gig. That said, I'm definitely more of a "live" player who truly appreciates the cats like Anthony Jackson, Lincoln Goines, Jeff Andrews, etc, etc...who are true professional chameleons, able to think and play to whatever is needed.