Low action, neck stability, and truss rod adjustments (xpost, sorry!)

[davecheng]

Disclaimer: I'm cross-posting this in the setup forum, but I figure I'd open it to you guys since I really value your opinions here!

It's winter time in Toronto, and my basses are often in and out of places with notable temperature and humidity changes.

While I don't exactly leave my instruments in a parked car in sub-zero temperatures, a 60 minute ride in the trunk followed by a two hour set at a packed bar is still a pretty significant variation.

My two main basses—a Roscoe LG-3005 and a Lakland Joe Osborn 5—have graphite reinforced necks. They're both set up with ultra-low action, probably 3/64"–5/64" to the strings around the 22nd fret. The necks have but a hair of relief, and adjusted so that they're a blink away from fret buzz.

In the past few weeks, I've found myself needing to constantly tweak the truss rods on both these basses... a lot more than I ever remember doing in years past.

(I've always preferred low action, but this year I've brought it down even lower.)

I'm guessing my low-tolerance, low-action setup is revealing just how much climate can affect a bass.

Anyway, this might be a stupid but obvious question:

How stable are the necks/setups on your basses, esp. those of you that subject the gear to significant changes in temperature and humidity?

Do you find you have to tweak a lot to keep the setup where you like it, esp. those with low/ultra-low action?

[Ryan L.]

I live in a land of extreme climates (North Da-friggin'-kota).

I keep my action on the low side, not super low, but low enough. It really depends on the bass, but I usually have to tweak the truss rods on most basses a couple times a year (summer and winter). I've had some basses that are fussier than others when it comes to staying setup to my liking (an MM Stingray 5 was THE worst I've ever owned).

So far, my Roscoe has stayed put perfectly. But then, the coldest it has gotten is the walk from my house to my Expedition, and then from there into wherever I'm playing at. So it stays pretty well climate-controlled.

[LightGroove]

I'm still trying to dial in "ultra low"...I find a battle of low and comfortable but increased fretbuzz and "dull" notes (those with poor sustain) or higher than I like with great sustain . If there's a magic potion Id love it.

Back on subject..yes I adjusted quite often over the summer as humidity was a killer. Not so much now in the colder weather but I do my best to keep things room temp.

[lwrthnwhalepoop]

Originally Posted by Ryan L.

I live in a land of extreme climates (North Da-friggin'-kota).

I keep my action on the low side, not super low, but low enough. It really depends on the bass, but I usually have to tweak the truss rods on most basses a couple times a year (summer and winter). I've had some basses that are fussier than others when it comes to staying setup to my liking (an MM Stingray 5 was THE worst I've ever owned).

So far, my Roscoe has stayed put perfectly. But then, the coldest it has gotten is the walk from my house to my Expedition, and then from there into wherever I'm playing at. So it stays pretty well climate-controlled.

Ditto here, from St. Paul, MN. When we transition in and out of "heating season" I have to chase the truss rod tension for 2-3 weeks until it re-stabilizes for the season. Relative humidity goes from 40-50% mid summer, sometimes much higher, to 15% or less in the winter. No surprise that wood of any sort is going to get a little unstable. Once they're set for the season, I don't have to adjust them much or at all, barring a change in their string diet which hasn't happened lately.

I set my basses up with roughly the same clearance you're working with, though this thread has a link to a great setup manual. You may want to review it to see that you're following at least the fundamental rules.

BTW, why are your basses forced to ride in the trunk? Put as many passengers or as much non-essential gear in the trunk as is necessary to make room for the basses in the passenger compartment.

I don't imagine a bass would cool down that drastically over the course of an hour, but it could. Do they feel noticeably cold to the touch right when you get to the gig? If so, you're torturing the neck by forcing it to accommodate the strong contraction of that steel truss rod. Then when the truss rod warms up, everything bounces back the other way. Not a nice thing to do to an assembly composed of a bunch of things that expand and contract at very different rates but which you hope will remain stable.

Every repetition of this is going to permanently reduce the neck's resiliency by some unknown amount. For me, it's not something I care to take a chance with with a bass I might very well want play for the next 20-30-40-? years, but then I baby all my gear. I know guys that subject their gear to all sorts of injustice, and some of them consistently sound good. I just make sure I don't ever buy any of their gear.

You're a photographer and depend on equipment, so you likely already treat all your gear with respect. I hope this doesn't sound too preachy. I'm just trying to pass along some hard-earned wisdom to my fellow TB'ers.

If a bass does get cold, and sometimes it's unavoidable, let it warm up as gradually as possible. Leave the case or gig bag closed; this will help prevent moisture from condensing on the cold bass and introducing yet another variable into the equation. If there isn't time (2-3 hours, depending on how cold it got) for that, put it on a stand and don't mess with it until it's warmed up. That includes playing, tuning, or - - tweaking the truss rod.

Also, when my basses are indoors I keep them away from direct heat sources - hot air ducts, radiators, etc. as direct heat and the associated thermal roller-coaster puts them under additional stress.

Best of luck, and keep us posted so we can learn from your experience.

-Dave

[LightGroove]

I 2nd the "put the bass in the passenger compartment" process. Heck sometime I'll give her her own seatbelt. Sure I get stares but what Roscoe doesnt get stares ...

[Bipslapper]

"an MM Stingray 5 was THE worst I've ever owned".
- Ryan, completely agree. My MM Sterling truss rod goes out all the time. I live in New England, where we get fairly cold winters and very humid summers- Spring is the mud season. My basses were so bad that I got a Modulus Q 5 (which is extremely stable, just don't like the neck as much as Roscoe), so I wouldn't have to tweak the TR. So far my Roscoe has been fine; when I first got it Gard told me to leave the strings tuned to pitch as much as possible and store it in the gig bag or case. There are different schools of thought on this subject of strings tuned to pitch over long periods of time and I am glad Dave brought up this topic to see what others think. Pete

[mwbonsall]

I don’t have my Roscoe yet, but my current bass has the graphite reinforcement rods in the neck. This winter is the first time I have had to adjust the truss rod since I purchased it 10 years ago. It is very stable, much better than all the other non graphite reinforced neck bass’ I have owned. I always keep my bass in the case when not played and in an air conditioned environment.

I always leave my basses tuned to pitch and have never had a problem. I think detuning and retuning would cause relief issues, but I may be wrong.


Mark

[davecheng]

Originally Posted by lwrthnwhalepoop

BTW, why are your basses forced to ride in the trunk? Put as many passengers or as much non-essential gear in the trunk as is necessary to make room for the basses in the passenger compartment.

The best common-sense piece of advice.

I guess I'm used to putting everything back there for the odd time I'm parked for a quick stop for food, etc.

My professional (photography) insurance policy has a deductible that quadruples if ever equipment is stolen out of the passenger compartment of the vehicle, so by force of habit, everything has been getting locked up in the trunk.

Glad to hear everyone chiming in—for what it's worth, I find I'm tweaking the Lakland 2-3x more often than the Roscoe.

[JOME77]

I have had a couple of Roscoe's that required tweaks of the truss rods from time to time but I've had my fretted for just over a year and it hasn't been touched since it arrived.

Maybe there's not a connection but the 3 Roscoe's that I've owned with the most stable neck all had cocobolo finger boards (including this one). I have the action set at .062 to 093 at the 24th fret and no buzz. This one is by far the best that I've owned.

I haven't owned the new fretless long enough to know. It hasn't moved since its arrival though (and it didn't need a truss rod adjustment upon it's arrival) so that's a good sign (and we've had a few temp swings since it's arrival).

.....and for the record, my basses don't ride in the trunk!

[Freddels]

I can't get the action very low on mine. The saddles are bottomed out. I may need a shim.

[JOME77]

Originally Posted by Freddels

I can't get the action very low on mine. The saddles are bottomed out. I may need a shim.

Yeah. Several of my former Roscoe's needed a shim to get super low action. Keith (and others) really believe that you obtain the optimal string-to saddle-to bridge-to body transfer if the entire saddle bottoms out on the bridge (i.e. the radii bottom of the custom HipShot bridge; matches the finger board radii).

A shim is the simple solution though. Just remember a little thickness goes a LONG way!

[251]

Steinberger XP2 (Maple Body/Graphite Neck) needs little to no adjustment. The fretted neck has no truss rod & could spend an entire day in the trunk traveling Upstate NY Winter or Summer. 2 Hours at room temperature & it felt 'normal'. Relief at pitch was about 0.035". That is a lot more than I like but it means I am so far from the lowest action that I can't feel it if the bass changes. The Moses fretless neck, also fitted to this body, has a truss rod that has little to no effect. Relief at pitch is 0.020" at best. The truss nut is torqued to about 55 lb/ft. The graphite is not going to compress & much more force would just damage the rod. I have not adjusted the string height(s) in 2 years.

Alembic Epic (5 piece Maple/Walnut, neck thru, dual rods) needs a set up 2 to 4 times/year & gets bridge height adjustment(s) when there is fret buzz. That is, I prefer ultra-low action but when temperature & humidity both change a lot in a short time, I take what I can get. The relief is 0.005 to 0.020" depending on weather. Mid-Summer is my favorite time to play this bass (0.005" relief, strings on the verge of buzz, pickups within 3/32" of the strings). It is fat & swollen in every way.

I carry a set up kit with the Alembic &, can make adjustments wearing the bass in about 10 minutes. I find this works better than setting up on a bench. I usually just raise the bridge & simplify my playing if the bass is out of shape. Life is short, I can still play well with higher action & I don't get to enjoy playing out often enough. Your results may vary. 8-)

[Brad Johnson]

I never carry my basses in an unheated trunk. The only trunk I do carry them in is my Miata's and it's not completely closed off from the interior of the car. In extreme temps it would ride up front in the Miata.

Carrying instruments in the passenger area is also a reason why I only use gigbags for local gigs. Much easier on the interior than a hardcase and I can easily fit two basses in anything I drive with room to spare.

Otherwise all the other stuff that was mentioned is key. Avoid going from one extreme temperature-wise to another. If you do, don't immediately expose the instrument. I keep my action very low yet don't have to tweak often because I try to keep the environments my basses "see" pretty stable. If I have to be anywhere for an extended period of time on the way to the gig, I take my basses with me. Probably looks odd sometimes... I don't care.

[Ryan L.]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I never carry my basses in an unheated trunk. The only trunk I do carry them in is my Miata's and it's not completely closed off from the interior of the car. In extreme temps it would ride up front in the Miata.

Carrying instruments in the passenger area is also a reason why I only use gigbags for local gigs. Much easier on the interior than a hardcase and I can easily fit two basses in anything I drive with room to spare.

If I'm taking the car somewhere, I use a gig bags for exactly that reason---much easier to fit in the passenger seat or back seat. In the Expedition, it doesn't matter, as the interior is the size of a small school bus, so a hardcase will fit fine, and the entire interior is heated.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by LightGroove

I'm still trying to dial in "ultra low"...I find a battle of low and comfortable but increased fretbuzz and "dull" notes (those with poor sustain) or higher than I like with great sustain . If there's a magic potion Id love it.

It's not magic. On the three Roscoes I had it was easy to dial in low action. You need the frets to be in great shape, I kept my neck as close to straight as I could get it and you need to have the ability to lower the saddles as far (or better yet farther than) you need them. If you don't have the travel, you may need to shim the neck. Low action on Roscoes is very doable IME. Once you've done it, you also need to make sure your technique is dialed in too.

I also raised my pickups as high as I could get them.

Back on subject..yes I adjusted quite often over the summer as humidity was a killer. Not so much now in the colder weather but I do my best to keep things room temp.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by 251

Steinberger XP2 (Maple Body/Graphite Neck) needs little to no adjustment. The fretted neck has no truss rod & could spend an entire day in the trunk traveling Upstate NY Winter or Summer. 2 Hours at room temperature & it felt 'normal'. Relief at pitch was about 0.035". That is a lot more than I like but it means I am so far from the lowest action that I can't feel it if the bass changes. The Moses fretless neck, also fitted to this body, has a truss rod that has little to no effect. Relief at pitch is 0.020" at best. The truss nut is torqued to about 55 lb/ft. The graphite is not going to compress & much more force would just damage the rod. I have not adjusted the string height(s) in 2 years.

Alembic Epic (5 piece Maple/Walnut, neck thru, dual rods) needs a set up 2 to 4 times/year & gets bridge height adjustment(s) when there is fret buzz. That is, I prefer ultra-low action but when temperature & humidity both change a lot in a short time, I take what I can get. The relief is 0.005 to 0.020" depending on weather. Mid-Summer is my favorite time to play this bass (0.005" relief, strings on the verge of buzz, pickups within 3/32" of the strings). It is fat & swollen in every way.

I carry a set up kit with the Alembic &, can make adjustments wearing the bass in about 10 minutes. I find this works better than setting up on a bench. I usually just raise the bridge & simplify my playing if the bass is out of shape. Life is short, I can still play well with higher action & I don't get to enjoy playing out often enough. Your results may vary. 8-)

Interesting. Once I've set a bass up, I only need to tweak the truss rod for environmental issues. Why would you adjust the bridge saddles instead? The neck is what moved.

[Gard]

FWIW, I played a Zon for 5 years as my #1 bass, and it MOVED too.

Anytime you are putting your instrument through a severe environmental change - humidity, heat, or both - you are going to change the balance of power so to speak. Strings will change tension, wood will expand or contract, trussrods will react to extreme changes in temperature.

The advice to keep the temperature as stable as possible is the best one here, and exactly how I handle things personally. Gigbag, in car with me, etc.

I've never had to reset my basses once they were set up, not one time, despite being in very wildly varying climates. Just treat 'em like they're ME, and all seems to be well.

[251]

I remember environmental issues are the topic. While I like ultra low action best, if time is short & the frets are a buzzin', raising the bridge & re-tuning gets me playing with little fuss or distraction. That's what works best for me before a gig or a jam.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by 251

I remember environmental issues are the topic. While I like ultra low action best, if time is short & the frets are a buzzin', raising the bridge & re-tuning gets me playing with little fuss or distraction. That's what works best for me before a gig or a jam.

Adjusting the trussrod is probably easier and it's addressing the actual problem. Shouldn't take anywhere near ten minutes. If you do as you stated, you still have a change in relief on the neck.

[251]

Well 2 dual rods & I can do it in 10 minutes, too but I find it tedious. Before a gig or a jam session, my personal preference is to stay relaxed & focus on music. Call me lazy.