More Aggressive Fretless Tone

[DerekG]

I have a gorgeous LG3005 fretless, redwood burl over mahogany, unlined ebony board, barts with a Demeter pre. The tone is big, buttery, smooth and sweet! But sometimes I wish it had a bit more growl and agressiveness. I've been using DR Hi Beams that when brand new, are pretty close to what I want to hear. I play through either an old SM-400 or an LMII with one or two Aggie GS112s. Any suggestions on strings, amps, cabs, effects, preamp or pickup replacements? Or will I never get that aggressive tone from the woods in this bass? If not, what would you spec?

[JOME77]

Originally Posted by DerekG

I have a gorgeous LG3005 fretless, redwood burl over mahogany, unlined ebony board, barts with a Demeter pre. The tone is big, buttery, smooth and sweet! But sometimes I wish it had a bit more growl and agressiveness. I've been using DR Hi Beams that when brand new, are pretty close to what I want to hear. I play through either an old SM-400 or an LMII with one or two Aggie GS112s. Any suggestions on strings, amps, cabs, effects, preamp or pickup replacements? Or will I never get that aggressive tone from the woods in this bass? If not, what would you spec?

IMO if you swapped out the Demeter for the Bart 3-band you'd definitely get more growl and a more aggressive tone.

I love the Roscoe Demeter in a fretted bass but IMO it's too smooth and hi-fi for a fretless.

[Strokey]

Originally Posted by JOME77

IMO if you swapped out the Demeter for the Bart 3-band you'd definitely get more growl and a more aggressive tone.

I love the Roscoe Demeter in a fretted bass but IMO it's too smooth and hi-fi for a fretless.

I agree. I can dial up a pretty growly aggressive tone with my Bart 3-band.

[Jeff Moote]

Yes, I agree with the others that you might try a Bart preamp in the bass. If that's not enough, I think you need to look at other woods - an ash body in particular will go a long way.

[DerekG]

Thank you for the inputs! So for all the Roscoe preamp options - the two different Aggies, Audere, Bart 2-way, Bart 3-way - the Bart 3-way will be the most aggressive?

I know that an Ash body would definitely be more aggressive (and probably a harder top too), but this bass plays and looks so great that I'm hoping to make it work through electronics.

[J.Wolf]

thats a beautiful LG, great top! I agree that a bart 3 band might be a little growlier for you, but you'll lose a little of that hifi demeter sound too, as long as thats OK.

Certainly a different wood combo would give you a growlier sound, but with what you have you could replace the preamp to a bart or an Aggie. Also, I can't remember which Nordstrand pickups work with the LG slant, but you might try a set of big singles or big splits to get a little more aggressive tone. good luck!

[Brad Johnson]

Are you favoring the bridge pickup? If not...

IME having both pickups on can tend to smooth out the sound of a fretless. Try it with the bridge soloed and dial back in some neck if desired. Try it with the onboard EQ set flat and the volume up.

If you set the LMII flat, filters off and bring up the gains with the Aggie 112s, they shouldn't be the problem.

And... where are you playing on the bass?

Until that's all sorted out, I wouldn't swap a thing.

[Jeff Moote]

Thanks Brad for saying the first thing that should have come up, but didn't because this is primarily a gear oriented forum. I'll second that soloing the bridge pickup and playing near the bridge and more aggressively will go a long way, and possibly make more difference than an electronics swap. Since this was posted in the Roscoe forum my answer defers to gear automatically, whereas if it was posted in technique...

[Jay Terrien]

I would suggest modifying what is currently going on with this instrument and by that, I mean that you could tweak your neck and adjust the set-up JUST a little lower. This is free and highly exploratory. I have had great results with any bass I have ever played/owned just by bringing things up or down a bit.

I can seek and destroy with my Status Stealth-2 fretless 6 since it is set-up so low........

If this doesn't obtain the aggressiveness that you seek, then go to step #2: SPEND CASH ON IT!!

JT

[DerekG]

I've had the bass for about two years and have definitely "solo'd" the bridge pickup, played at the bridge, tweaked tone controls on the bass and the amp. Soloing the bridge pup, playing at the bridge definitely increases the percussiveness of the tone but not necessarily the growl (i know all these terms are a bit subjective). Increasing left hand fingering pressure with a little vibrato brings out some mwah, but seems to require more strength than it should (i've been playing a LONG time and have a good bit of finger strength).

I tend to play with a pretty heavy right hand so i initially raised the action and added some neck relief. I've recently begun lowering the action, decreasing relief a bit (but perhaps there's more latitude there) and modifying my right hand technique a bit.

Right now, neck relief is at about two to three business cards thick gap at the fifth fret - i can probably tighten the truss rod a bit more. The saddles appear to be sitting on the bridge except for the G-string which has a tiny bit of adjustment room and the action is what i would call medium to medium-low. I've definitely played basses with lower action. Perhaps the neck needs a shim? But that's something I'd take to a luthier. Thank you again for the comments and suggestions.

[Basso Gruvitas]

Originally Posted by JOME77

IMO if you swapped out the Demeter for the Bart 3-band you'd definitely get more growl and a more aggressive tone.

I love the Roscoe Demeter in a fretted bass but IMO it's too smooth and hi-fi for a fretless.

I couldn't agree more.

[Basso Gruvitas]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Are you favoring the bridge pickup? If not...

IME having both pickups on can tend to smooth out the sound of a fretless. Try it with the bridge soloed and dial back in some neck if desired. Try it with the onboard EQ set flat and the volume up.

If you set the LMII flat, filters off and bring up the gains with the Aggie 112s, they shouldn't be the problem.

And... where are you playing on the bass?

Until that's all sorted out, I wouldn't swap a thing.

I couldn't agree more.

[maurilio]

+1 on everything that's already been said.

I, for sure, would not install a Demeter in a fretless bass. I have it on my fretted and I would not swap it for anything else, but for a growlier sound in a fless I would go Bart, or even Aguilar.

IME, IMO

M

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by DerekG

I've had the bass for about two years and have definitely "solo'd" the bridge pickup, played at the bridge, tweaked tone controls on the bass and the amp. Soloing the bridge pup, playing at the bridge definitely increases the percussiveness of the tone but not necessarily the growl (i know all these terms are a bit subjective). Increasing left hand fingering pressure with a little vibrato brings out some mwah, but seems to require more strength than it should (i've been playing a LONG time and have a good bit of finger strength).

With low action, it shouldn't require much finger strength at all. Remember, it's much easier to have low action when you don't have frets to worry about.

I tend to play with a pretty heavy right hand so i initially raised the action and added some neck relief. I've recently begun lowering the action, decreasing relief a bit (but perhaps there's more latitude there) and modifying my right hand technique a bit.

I play with low action, have the pickups set about as high as they'll go and have pretty much no relief. From there it's just a matter of experimenting with your touch, finding out what sounds result from playing a particular way in a particular spot. You can play near the bridge and not sound percussive... you might find you've been playing right past "growl" into "percussive" all along.

Right now, neck relief is at about two to three business cards thick gap at the fifth fret - i can probably tighten the truss rod a bit more. The saddles appear to be sitting on the bridge except for the G-string which has a tiny bit of adjustment room and the action is what i would call medium to medium-low. I've definitely played basses with lower action. Perhaps the neck needs a shim? But that's something I'd take to a luthier. Thank you again for the comments and suggestions.

You don't really need a luthier to experiemnt with shims, unless you're just not comfortablewith taking a neck off and putting it back on.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

Thanks Brad for saying the first thing that should have come up, but didn't because this is primarily a gear oriented forum. I'll second that soloing the bridge pickup and playing near the bridge and more aggressively will go a long way, and possibly make more difference than an electronics swap. Since this was posted in the Roscoe forum my answer defers to gear automatically, whereas if it was posted in technique...

Understood. I've played a few Roscoe fretlesses (very nice BTW) though none with a Demeter and had no problem getting the desired sound from them unplugged which leads me to believe that the fundamental issue may not be with the bass. This was with Mahogany and Spanish Cedar among other things.

[Basso Gruvitas]

Yeah Derek, the mahogany will give you a rounder tone than Spanish Cedar. Less prone to be growly. But I think Brad has made some excellent suggestions for you to try.

Also, I would try a different pre....

[Halftooth]

From what I can tell Redwood seems to soften the tone a bit, and Mahogany does the same, at least compared to Ash for example.

As the others have mentioned, I thinking switching out your preamp will do it. I like the new Audere pretty well with fretless myself, but the Bart is very good too.

[Gard]

....late to the party again....



...good advice going on, Derek (hey man! ), you're definitely getting some good suggestions, particularly the ones from Brad about playing with the setup a bit to see if that brings a bit more mwah out.

Failing that, I would say that the Demeter preamp is a good place to start experimenting, if setup tweaks don't get you where you want to be. As has been pointed out, the Demeter is a bit "sqeaky clean" (as the now it's replacement Audere is), and the Bart or Aggie 3 bands may be a good choice to bring more of that type of character out of the bass.

The Bart will be a bit smoother but nice and growly, the Aggie will be very aggressive sounding and have a lot of mids....

...let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

[Basso Gruvitas]

Originally Posted by Gard

...and the Bart or Aggie 3 bands may be a good choice to bring more of that type of character out of the bass.

The Bart will be a bit smoother but nice and growly, the Aggie will be very aggressive sounding and have a lot of mids....

All true, but I would give you a heads up that the Aguilar has very bright highs. Lots of upper end sizzle along with the mwah. The Bart has a more compressed treble that, TO ME, is more conducive to a sweet fretless tone.

I respect Gard's input greatly but he enjoys a more aggressive fretless tone than I (his ash/birdseye fb/bubinga top/Nordstrand pups vs. my Spanish Cedar/cocobolo top/Bart preamp) So part of it is just HOW much growl and aggressive tone you want.

[DerekG]

Basso,

I find the Demeter treble control also introduces very bright highs or cuts them if attenuating the treble. if i remember correctly, the center frequency of the treble control is at 10kHz which i find too high to be very usable. I think around 5k is better. Do you have any comparison opinions of the Aguilar and Bart highs and perhaps more importantly, the control of the highs, relative to the Demeter?

Gard, thank you for weighing in - i know you remember this bass! I still absolutely love the look and feel of it which is why i continue to keep working the tone. I'll likely send you a private mail or a phone call to talk further in the next few days.