The pimped #5629! need help on electronics makeover

[vilkai]

Roscoeheads, I need your help!

I couldn't resist snagging this bass when it came up last Dec, even though I was really quite happy with my SKBs with the bart/demeter and bart/glock combo.

Having had this for a while now, I can see why it's changed hands a few times: it plays like a dream, but doesn't have that Roscoe Tone, imo. Could be the walnut, but having had three basses with the Aguilar preamp now, and not having used basses with single coils since I sold my F-Basses... It's the electronics, really. The acoustic tone is there, but single coils and Aggie make for a really aggressive character with a slap tone that kills. For Fingerstyle the Aggie lows are overpowering if boosted and the pups and pre sound quite nasal and brittle without low end boost.

My rigs are 1) EA micro 500 and Acme Low B1 2) READ Custom Purity + QSC PLX + 2 x Acme Low B2 - on other rigs with piezo tweeters the highs are truly horrid, but then that is a feature of the piezo tweets, and a passive P-bass would be similarly ill-treated.

I really like the Roscoe tone I got on the record I did with the white SKB and the 6 with Demeter! The looks (yes I'm that vain) and sound of this bass were, however, better for me. More complex than the ash-bodied basses. Guess that's what the first owner was offsetting with the pups?

I'm now thinking I'd like either Demeter or Glock for the preamp - Glock is what I'm leaning towards, as it had more mids and it can go passive with tone control when that's called for. Which pickups? Classic barts are an instinctual choice, but the delanos sound really nice and have the added bonus of being European.

I'd really appreciate any advice from more experienced Roscoeheads!

update:

I've ordered the Glockenklang pre-amp. Not sure about the barts yet, as I wouldn't know who has them in stock - Bartolini is infamous for being hard to get to actually ship out a small shipment!

[PacoJastoriusFr]

it's said that the OBP-3 (3 band cut & boost) is aggressive, but more refined and flexible , slight emphasis on the upper mids...
the low on the aguilar are 50hz... which cannot be the best choise for a bass that have great lows by itself (as mine for an example , or as yours i guess...) , i think it's "too low" & too much (+18db!)
i've removed the bart P4 on mine... i bought 2 delanos, that fits nicely... i find then more "open' as it's generally said here... more wide!
but i'm afraid that the tone of the bass comes from the wood... & changing pick up or preamp won't change the main shape of your sound... changing stings brand can also give you a other colour...
so i hope i could help & didn't have misunderstood your thread...
keep on swinging!

[CactusmanDoug]

Originally Posted by vilkai

Roscoeheads, I need your help!


I'm now thinking I'd like either Demeter or Glock for the preamp - Glock is what I'm leaning towards, as it had more mids and it can go passive with tone control when that's called for. Which pickups? Classic barts are an instinctual choice, but the delanos sound really nice and have the added bonus of being European.

I'd really appreciate any advice from more experienced Roscoeheads!

I think you're on the right track. You will always be dealing with whatever tone is naturally produced by any given instrument and you can only go from there.

I would definitely try either the Glock or Demeter. I've owned both and personally prefer the Demeter for all around tonal flavor. You might want to go Glock since you want a passive option. Used Bart pups are fairly cheap on TB... I'd consider getting the CB's and the Roscoe Quad Coils. You will definitely know where you want to go from there if that doesn't do the trick.

BTW- the only "bonus" in being European in origin is limited to sports cars, bread and cheese.

Roscoes are Yankee made, worldwide played.

...sorry, couldn't resist.

All the best,

Doug

[Addison]

If you won't be keeping the electrocs you have in that bass right now, I might be interested.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

[VroomVroom]

You know, this is an interesting read for me. I'm somewhat in the same boat with my second SKB-3006. When I first heard it, I was knocked out. But in retrospect, what did it for me was the fact that it sounded different. And, no apologies for vanity...Roscoe basses are stunners, but even by those standards every now and then they create one that is just pure candy for the eyes. The one I've got certainly qualifies.

We've talked about this a lot - what defines the characteristic Roscoe sound? Undoubtedly woods play a role. In every fashion. Quantity, quality, and type. What's the body wood? What's the grain pattern? If there's a top, how thick is it? Yada yada. Beyond that, I also think the electronics play a role. Based on my experience, much of this does come down to the pickups. What does "Roscoe Barts" mean, specifically? Well...none of my business. I just trust that the guy who puts his name on the headstock spec'd 'em for a reason. That, and every bass I've ever heard with 'em sounds like....a Roscoe.

I don't have a lot of experience with "exotic" pre-amps. I am, however, a big fan of both the Bart NTMB and the Aggie OBP-3. They each have their sweet spots, and IMO they both work nicely with Roscoe Bart pickups. My particular bass has Nordstrand DC's and the Aggie pre. It's an aggressive sounding instrument, for sure. The more I play it, though, I'm just not sure there's enough "Roscoeness" in there for me.

If you can afford some experimentation, I think I'd start with the pickups. I'd be really interested to hear what the Barts - Roscoe or CB - do to color the sound. Here's wishing you the best, and I'm definitely interested to learn about your results. From my standpoint, I'm not generally one for much experimentation in this regard. Right now the decision I'm looking at is whether to keep or sell. This bass just isn't being played enough...it's a 'tweener for me. Not as Roscoe-ish as my myrtle bass, and when I want a sixer with more cut and aggression, I call on my walnut/ash MTD.

Sorry for the long post. Again, good luck!

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

You know, this is an interesting read for me. I'm somewhat in the same boat with my second SKB-3006. When I first heard it, I was knocked out. But in retrospect, what did it for me was the fact that it sounded different. And, no apologies for vanity...Roscoe basses are stunners, but even by those standards every now and then they create one that is just pure candy for the eyes. The one I've got certainly qualifies.

We've talked about this a lot - what defines the characteristic Roscoe sound? Undoubtedly woods play a role. In every fashion. Quantity, quality, and type. What's the body wood? What's the grain pattern? If there's a top, how thick is it? Yada yada. Beyond that, I also think the electronics play a role. Based on my experience, much of this does come down to the pickups. What does "Roscoe Barts" mean, specifically? Well...none of my business. I just trust that the guy who puts his name on the headstock spec'd 'em for a reason. That, and every bass I've ever heard with 'em sounds like....a Roscoe.

I don't have a lot of experience with "exotic" pre-amps. I am, however, a big fan of both the Bart NTMB and the Aggie OBP-3. They each have their sweet spots, and IMO they both work nicely with Roscoe Bart pickups. My particular bass has Nordstrand DC's and the Aggie pre. It's an aggressive sounding instrument, for sure. The more I play it, though, I'm just not sure there's enough "Roscoeness" in there for me.

If you can afford some experimentation, I think I'd start with the pickups. I'd be really interested to hear what the Barts - Roscoe or CB - do to color the sound. Here's wishing you the best, and I'm definitely interested to learn about your results. From my standpoint, I'm not generally one for much experimentation in this regard. Right now the decision I'm looking at is whether to keep or sell. This bass just isn't being played enough...it's a 'tweener for me. Not as Roscoe-ish as my myrtle bass, and when I want a sixer with more cut and aggression, I call on my walnut/ash MTD.

Sorry for the long post. Again, good luck!

Jerry,

Maybe I don't have a clue of the "Roscoe Sound" (which apparently I don't) but your Nord/Aggie bass has my favorite tone I've heard in a Roscoe (in sound clips anyway). I'll have a more "hands on" opinion come the end of March.

I'm sure I'm an oddball, but I know your ears are more experienced than mine.

If it sounds so yucky that you just want rid of it, well.......



God Bless, Ray

[vilkai]

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

I think you're on the right track. You will always be dealing with whatever tone is naturally produced by any given instrument and you can only go from there.

Yes, indeed! Between the 3 Smiths I had within the last 12 months you could tell the differences immediately, without plugging them in. Just using them as an example since Smiths are made to a tight spec, Ken is quite meticulous about the woods (or so I hear) and they were all sixes with Smith pickups and pre-amps... And none could sound like the others.

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

Used Bart pups are fairly cheap on TB... I'd consider getting the CB's and the Roscoe Quad Coils. You will definitely know where you want to go from there if that doesn't do the trick.

This would be an idea worth considering! The other Roscoes had Barts and I liked the tones - seems logical to try that route.

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

BTW- the only "bonus" in being European in origin is limited to literature, history, science, scenery, wine, beer, whisky, cognac, champagne, food, legislation, equality of opportunity, whisky, all cars, communism, bread, snobs, superiority complex, pretty wimmin' and cheese. And whisky.

fixed it for ya. :P

Originally Posted by Addison

If you won't be keeping the electrocs you have in that bass right now, I might be interested.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

PM'd.

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

<snip> When I first heard it, I was knocked out. But in retrospect, what did it for me was the fact that it sounded different. <snip>

Sounds eerily similar.

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

<snip> Beyond that, I also think the electronics play a role. Based on my experience, much of this does come down to the pickups.

Maybe I ought to try and procure a set of Roscoe Barts, then!

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

Sorry for the long post. Again, good luck!

No need to be sorry, it's all interesting - far too interesting, really, I'd be far better off just rolling off treble and practising more!

[CactusmanDoug]

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

BTW- the only "bonus" in being European in origin is limited to sports cars, bread and cheese.

I almost forgot...worldwide leaders in hallucination (long live the Yugo ).



FWIW...my Porsche was assembled in Finland

[VroomVroom]

FWIW, here's my take on the Roscoe sound. Nothing new here, just my fertile myrtle baby in her element.

Small group

Larger/louder

Myrtle over ash, spalted purpleheart board on a standard neck, Bartolini electronics. The sound? Full, fat lows, chewy/grindy mids with just a bit of compression, and highs that are crisp but not thin. Arguably, my maple/wenge wedge Nord/Aggie bass is a bit more versatile, and certainly more aggressive, but what it doesn't offer is what you hear above.

[vilkai]

Ach, you bought one of those "compensation-wagen!" They were made in the town I lived in from 9 to 19 years of age - worked as a security guard there, drooling over the amusing little cars. They pack nice amount of power for the weight, admittably... But it's not a REAL Porsche!

Yup, still saving for that 911! (And will still be saving when they've nailed stuf the coffin)

edit: typos. Also - now that we drive a Mercedes-Benz, you couldn't pay us to take any American made car over it. (well, unless we were allowed to re-sell and get another German rear wheel drive car)

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

FWIW...my Porsche was assembled in Finland

OH YEA!

My Porsche was assembled in.......


MY BEDROOM!



CA glue sucks!

God Bless, Ray

[CactusmanDoug]

Originally Posted by vilkai

Ach, you bought one of those "compensation-wagen!" They were made in the town I lived in from 9 to 19 years of age - worked as a security guard there, drooling over the amusing little cars. They pack nice amount of power for the weight, admittably... But it's not a REAL Porsche!

Uhoh...sounds like a little good old fashioned (centuries old) European class envy.

Lemme see... Porsche owner and ex-factory security guard/current day Mercedes driver.

Hmmm...Seems to be 2 distinctly different titles.

...eerily similar to the stark contrast between ruling class and proletariat.

[vilkai]

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

Uhoh...sounds like a little good old fashioned (certuries old) European class envy.

Naah, the MB was a used C series STW -model with a modest diesel engine. Should still have well over 300,000 km - or much over 150,000 miles in it with regular maintenance and am not really saving for a 911 as I prefer other sorts of expensive diversions.

But let's get back on topic, shall we? You wouldn't have an extra set of Bartolini P4's, would you?

As to class envy, you need not fear, my family has lived off the skin on their quarry worker's back for a century now.

[CactusmanDoug]

Not at the moment...I had to really scour the accessories and pm'ed different Roscoeheads that had either bought or sold such pups until Alphaman coughed up his used Quad coils

The beautiful thing about a Roscoe thread is that your get great advice and so much more.

You're alot of fun and a great sport, if I had an extra set they'd be yours.

How about it Roscoeheads...anybody got a set a Quad P4s for our Finnish brother?

All the best,

Doug

[Freddels]

What model number are these "quad" barts? I've only seen dual coil barts on the Bartolini website.

[CactusmanDoug]

Originally Posted by Freddels

What model number are these "quad" barts? I've only seen dual coil barts on the Bartolini website.

Unless I'm mistaken, the quads are the pups Keith had Bartolini build special for Roscoe basses.

Hey Gard, maybe you could chime in on this one.

[CliffD]

My two cents:

The "nasal and brittle without low end boost" sound you're talking about may also be caused by the solid walnut body. From my limited experience walnut is a very heavy and dense wood and usually has a brighter than "normal" sound.

All of the Aguilar preamps use a FET circuit, just like Sadowsky's. With the preamp flat it will do nothing but "fatten" the tone and make it louder, as any FET circuit will, they have a lot of character. So I wouldn't blame it for the nasal and brittle sound when set flat, if you don't like the way it sounds when boosting or cutting then yeah move on.

I'd look to change the pickups first, then change the pre it you still aren't hearing what you like.

Good luck and have fun!

[MG Bass]

Originally Posted by VroomVroom

FWIW, here's my take on the Roscoe sound. Nothing new here, just my fertile myrtle baby in her element.

Small group

Larger/louder

Myrtle over ash, spalted purpleheart board on a standard neck, Bartolini electronics. The sound? Full, fat lows, chewy/grindy mids with just a bit of compression, and highs that are crisp but not thin. Arguably, my maple/wenge wedge Nord/Aggie bass is a bit more versatile, and certainly more aggressive, but what it doesn't offer is what you hear above.

Hi Jerry, can you clarify the details on the specs of the bass in the first clip, that sounds pretty much what I'm after i.e,

Myrtle Burl ?
Ash or Swamp Ash body?
Spalted Purpleheart board with Sapwood ?
Bart/roscoe preamp and Bart/Roscoe pups ?

thanks.

[Gard]

Originally Posted by CactusmanDoug

Unless I'm mistaken, the quads are the pups Keith had Bartolini build special for Roscoe basses.

Hey Gard, maybe you could chime in on this one.

The quad coil humbuckers are actually pretty common, but I do not know how they number/name the pickups to delinate which are and are not quad coils.

The point of a quad coil pickup is that you can arrange it to be a full humbucker, a J-style (in line) single coil (actually a side-by-side humbucker that "sees" the strings like a J), and an offset humbucker like a P-style.

[VroomVroom]

Sure, Mark.

Myrtle burl over swamp ash, split board, Bart/Roscoe on both the pre and pickups, although I understand the pre is not specific to Roscoe (please correct me if I'm wrong on this).



Same bass in both clips, by the way. The first was a fairly quiet trio gig, running through the Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0-12T. The second was a much bigger and louder room, with the bass running through a Shuttle 9.0 and two Aguilar GS-112 cabs. In fact, here's a shot from that gig:



Don't mind that other bass - it was just there to make the Roscoe look even better.