Roscoe and overdrive? Rock tone? (sound clips)

davecheng · #1 07-17-2009, 11:27 AM

In the past few days, I've been struggling to get a warm, slightly overdriven tone from my LG for some work with a 90s alternative cover band.

With a very wide, hi-fi sounding rig (Markbass LMII > Epifani UL410), I ran into some difficulties tracking down an overdrive pedal that would retain not only the defined lows, but some semblance of the characteristic "Roscoe" tone as well. (The last thing I want is for this bass to sound like every other Precision-into-a-cranked-SVT.)

I guess part of my problem was that I was so used hearing where the bass fit in amongst a busy mix of horns, keys, guitars, and percussion in rnb/jazz/pop; I didn't really have any idea, though, of what I was looking for tonally in a rock context.

So I started with a Fulltone Bass-Drive, but was disappointed by its low end loss:

http://davecheng.com/stuff/tone_comparison.mp3

A pretty insightful thread led me to the Xotic Bass BB Preamp, and this:

http://davecheng.com/sounds/roscoe-xotic_fulltone.mp3
first clean, then Bass BB, then Bass-Drive

http://davecheng.com/sounds/rock-clean.mp3
http://davecheng.com/sounds/rock-xotic.mp3

http://davecheng.com/sounds/purple_haze-clean.mp3
http://davecheng.com/sounds/purple_haze-xotic.mp3
LG > Bass BB > Radial JDI > Edirol UA25EX

All this being said, do many of you guys dirty up the tone of your Roscoes?

What sort of sounds do you find work in a mix of thick, power chord guitars?

(Yes, I'm a total n00b at grungy rock bass. Back in the early 90s, I was a guitar-playing teenager just like everyone else.)

VroomVroom · #2 07-17-2009, 12:03 PM

Dave, what a great post, and those are some terrific clips!

I confess that I do very little of this stuff, so my experience is as weak as my input on the topic.

I will say that I don't think of my Roscoe(s) for gigs of this flavor, although biasing the neck pickup and boosting the heck out of the mids can certainly make some headway.

I recently did a gig with a band that covers a lot of ground, and the setlist on the night I played included Diana Ross, Nirvana, Beyonce, Bon Jovi, Michael Jackson, AC/DC, and Kool & The Gang. Along with the variety, and the occasional wall of guitars, they were LOUD. (Or I'm just getting old.) Compounding things, this band segues from tune to tune VERY quickly, so it was absolutely a one-bass gig. I used the brightest and loudest bass in my arsenal, and was able to cop everything fairly well by boosting mids here and there and alternating my hand position and attack.

JOME77 · #3 07-17-2009, 02:44 PM

Interesting topic Dave.

I'll have to admit that I'm not much into an overdriven sound. About as close as I come to that is on some of the more rocking tunes I pan the Roscoe to the neck p/u, crank the TFunk level around 2-3:00 O'clock, engage the limiter, set the enhance control to about 9:00 O'clock and set the master volume for the required volume needed . It creates a huge warm compressed tone that sounds great for tunes by groups like Cream, Zeppelin or Grand Funk. It's next to impossible though to get a Thunderfunk amp to distort.
The Mesa amps do a real nice job on tunes like that though (without sounding like a busted speaker).

Darkstrike · #4 07-17-2009, 02:48 PM

I've been using a MXR Blowtorch on mine to good effect, but thats a fuzzbox.

Sorry I can't comment on the clips, but my current setup would crash if I even thought of clicking on them.

DannyV · #5 07-17-2009, 05:31 PM

I just discovered the tube-driven joy in my EBS Valve Drive. That's the best, most musical harmonic distortion I've ever played with. Nice and gritty without losing the beefiness of the original sound (SKB3006). And I'm not even turning it up much - I'm afraid that the guitar player next to me would burst into flames or some such thing if there was too much juice there.

I also have a Rat, one of the older ones, and find that it thins things out too much to sit well with other instruments, even when the Tone knob is twisted in directions one would think might help.

davecheng · #6 07-18-2009, 02:02 AM

I think the thing I'm struggling with most is finding a unique tone that fits into the mix.

Rock seems to be all about mids, mids, and more mids. My LG into an SVT/810 setup transforms a beautiful, complex tone into a mashup of muddy midtones--suitable, perhaps, for punk-with-a-Precision, but definitely not the detailed, hi-fi sound we're all used to.

I'm going to give the neck p/u and mid boost a try with this Xotic BB. Where did I read something about rock bass being 1% tone, and 99% attitude...?

Darkstrike · #7 07-18-2009, 06:24 AM

A think I found great to keep the carachter of an instrument such as a Roscoe, and still get dirty, is a pedal with a blend control, again, though it's fuzz, thats one reason I favour a Blowtorch.

What you do, is turn up the drive/fuzz/gain much more than you normally would, and balance the blend much more in favour of the clean tone.

This will give you the dirt, and still send a lot of instrument tone through, in my experience.

By the way, I'm NOT a gigging musician, so take that for what its worth.

AverageWhiteBassist · #8 07-19-2009, 07:17 PM

I do a top 40 cover band doing everything from Guns and Roses to Michael Jackson to Zeppelin and I like the Tech 21 VT Bass. I can really nail the grindy Heartbreaker tone with a small favor to the neck pickup and a tad of drive. To me, that pedal works so well with the bass, I can use it as a direct to board record and get SVT-B-15 tones out of it. I love it.

davecheng · #9 07-23-2009, 04:01 PM

Got a chance to use the Xotic Bass BB pedal live.

I think I'm getting a reasonable facsimile of a Precision tone out of my LG, but with a big and defined MTD-esque low end.

Clips from a crappy Zoom digital recorder:

http://davecheng.com/sounds/lg_theoaf.mp3
http://davecheng.com/sounds/lg_alive.mp3

The second clip (Pearl Jam cover) really gives a good idea of the sound. (Sorry about the crappy playing. I had a few drinks and was rocking out—quite a change from the feather-light touch I'm used to for rnb/jazz stuff. But whatever. No excuses.)

LG-3005 (p/u pan towards neck, boost lows and low-mid @ 250Hz, slight cut to highs) through the Xotic BB into a LMII/UL410 rig EQ'ed flat.

There don't seem to be very many dirt pedals that preserve the entire range of the frequency spectrum like the Xotic. I have a feeling it has something to do with the "traditional" warm, over-driven rock tone being all about mids, and the types of rigs common to the genre (Ampeg SVT/810).

I don't think you'd be able to hear the marked difference in low-end loss through anything other a clean, hi-fi rig.

I realize at the end of the day, I'm trying to do the equivalent of 4x4 off-roading a Formula 1 car, but at least I know now it can be done.

Gard · #10 07-23-2009, 04:11 PM

Dave, first of all, stop with the "I suck" stuff, you DON'T.

Secondly, nice tones!

Funny, I'm playing nothing but classic rock stuff on my two Century Signature VI's...grinding through Joan Jett covers and stuff...who cares, right?

I need to get a good overdrive pedal myself, so I've been paying close attention to this thread...of course, I just really dig in now to get the gritty tone from just how I play and it seems to at least be "close enough"...

JOME77 · #11 07-23-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davecheng

Got a chance to use the Xotic Bass BB pedal live.

I think I'm getting a reasonable facsimile of a Precision tone out of my LG, but with a big and defined MTD-esque low end.

Nice Dave! Great playing and I really like that tone (more so than the earlier clips). It would work great on an extended version of Creams "Sunshine of my Love" or Crossroads"!

RocketMusic · #12 07-23-2009, 04:57 PM

My top two picks are the T-Rex BassJuice and the EBS Valve Drive. The Valve Drive is great for that cranked SVT sort of tone - fat, round, warm, grungy grind. But when I want even more gain (think Jack Bruce or even dirtier), I prefer the BassJuice. The BassJuice has a "Mix" knob that lets you dial in some of your original clean tone, and that really helps retain a well-defined and thumping low end. In my experience, the low end is the first thing to go once you get past a mild grind.

I've got both on my pedal board, and the Valve Drive is on probably 85% of the time (almost always, unless I want to be really clean). The BassJuice is usually off, but it's what I go to when I want to get nasty.

COMPLETE would definitely befefit from the BasssJuice... if they had a clue!!

davecheng · #13 07-23-2009, 05:27 PM

Thanks, guys. Really.

I'm quite pleased at the sounds I can coax out of this Bart/Bart LG. It's nice to be able to keep some semblance of a unique, sophisticated tone in a grungy rock mix.

I have yet to try the Xotic BB at higher gain--I've been aiming for "warm dirt", but not "hair"--but I can imagine a blend knob or the Xotic X-Blender being really useful to dial back in the clean bottom end.

Did I mention how bloody small this pedal is?

RocketMusic · #14 07-23-2009, 05:42 PM

Oh, man, you need the EBS OctaBass, too!! It tracks a bit better than the Boss, AND it's polyphonic and true bypass.

Sorry, free advice - worth what ya paid for it! Can ya tell I'm a pedal nut?!?

Darkstrike · #15 07-23-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Oh, man, you need the EBS OctaBass, too!! It tracks a bit better than the Boss, AND it's polyphonic and true bypass.

Sorry, free advice - worth what ya paid for it! Can ya tell I'm a pedal nut?!?

The Boss is polyphonic too.

When its polyphonic, and through the guitar input, the tracking's pretty good, but I hear the Octa's still better.

Still want an OctaBass too...... for tonal differences at least.

RocketMusic · #16 07-23-2009, 06:19 PM

Yeah, I started with the Boss one myself... they say it's polyphonic, but it's not nearly as good polyphonically as the EBS. I was forever fighting the Boss trying to stop the low octave from cutting out... play too fast, play the wrong note combinations... ughh. With the EBS, I don't have to play around the pedal, I can just play.

On the bright side, the Boss one has a nice tone to it, kinda growly. The EBS one is a little cleaner, which is I find useful sometimes, and sometimes not...

Darkstrike · #17 07-23-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketMusic

Yeah, I started with the Boss one myself... they say it's polyphonic, but it's not nearly as good polyphonically as the EBS. I was forever fighting the Boss trying to stop the low octave from cutting out... play too fast, play the wrong note combinations... ughh. With the EBS, I don't have to play around the pedal, I can just play.

On the bright side, the Boss one has a nice tone to it, kinda growly. The EBS one is a little cleaner, which is I find useful sometimes, and sometimes not...

Hmm, I never had that problem, try the guitar input?

Interesting though, I must try an OctaBass one of these days.

chadds · #18 07-26-2009, 05:24 PM

I use the Raven Labs MDB-1 which has a side chain effects loop so there is all your clean signal and your distortion. I alternate between the Tech 21 Double Drive and the Danelectro Fab Tone. I prefer extreme guitar like distortion as opposed to "bass amp with farty blown speakers" sound. With the extreme sound and your full bass tone it's perfect. For me.

I really prefer clean fat distinct over overdriven though so generally do the distortion thing on studio cuts. I really like having a dedicated distortion rig too. It can be quite small. I use the Looper pedal that allows each effect be out or in and the clean going too. I think he's out of business though.