Tone Dilemma

pbasswil · #1 03-27-2009, 05:57 PM

Hey folks,

I'm the guy that bought the used pink ivory wood SKB 5 from Bass Northwest. It's a stunning instrument, that's for sure, and I like a lot of things about it. I'll enumerate them in another post!

But I'd like to tell you my dilemma, and get your reaction and thoughts on it.

This one has the standard Roscoe Bartolinis and preamp. I'm liking the neck pickup a lot; it definitely brings a Precision Bass thing to the table -- you know, a certain glassy hollowness, with a nice round bottom, if that makes any sense. Fun!

The bridge pickup is not doing much for me, though. I like mids just fine, I'm not someone who scoops them all out. I'm used to a neck pickup being a bit hollow-sounding, and a bridge pickup sort of filling in the hole in the mids.
The bridge Bart on this bass is not really doing that. The mids it contributes seem to be mostly higher than what I'd like it to give (but still not a lot of "real" highs). Hardly any lower-mid body to it. Its location, quite close to the bridge, probably has a lot to do with it.

The result is that when I pan the pickup blend to the middle, I'm not getting a full sounding "standard" bass tone, the sort of default tone I'd choose for typical playing. The further towards the bridge pu I pan, the less I like it. When I pan back past center to favour the neck pu, I _do_ like it; but like I said, it's a bit P-bassy-hollow.

Now, I can use the preamp to add the missing lower mids, and it sort of works. But then there's this obvious sort of peak at the centre frequency, where certain notes come out louder than others. :^(

Any thoughts?

thanks in advance,

Peter W

CactusmanDoug · #2 03-27-2009, 06:17 PM

Hi Peter,

There is really only one solution for your dilemma...SELL THE BASS TO ME!!!!

No seriously, (I AM serious) I don't know your experience with the Bart/Roscoe Bart thing but I have removed them from all Roscoes I've owned and replaced with Nordies or CB Barts while using an Audere or Glock pre.

I know I would probably do that with your bass (another reason you should sell it to me) but you will receive lots of other good advice from the gang.

...just don't listen to Gard.

JOME77 · #3 03-27-2009, 06:25 PM

Peter,
My suggestion would be to replace the bridge (maybe both) p/u(s) with the Bart CB model. Much less upper mid emphasis. More of an open sound (not as compressed sounding).

I personally real like the Bart 3-band on Keith's fretless basses but I'm not as crazy about the Bart pre in the fretted basses. You might like the Roscoe Audere 4-band with separate low and hi mid controls. The Audere IMO is a much more natural sounding pre. IMO it allows you to hear the acoustic sound of the instrument much better than the Bart.

Just my $.02 worth ....

pbasswil · #4 03-27-2009, 08:25 PM

Not quick enough! What, were you guys waiting to pounce as soon as I posted?? Did you pop into phone booths to change before flying to my rescue? ;^>

I've been lurking on the Roscoe forum long enough to recognize those suggestions. I may well try replacing at least one pickup. I have to confess though: I suspect I'd like the bridge p.u. just fine if it was a little further from the bridge. But carving up this beautiful top is obviously not an option.

Another TalkBasser, Maurilio, installed a switch that lets him choose between series (Roscoe default), parallel, and single-coil. He says that opened things up a lot for him. (Also, he prefers a Demeter preamp.)
I think the coil tap switching would be the cheapest and easiest thing to try first; what do you think?

Question: does going from series to parallel refer to how the two pickups are wired in relation to each other? Or does it refer to the relation between the 2 (or is it 4?) coils _within_ each pickup? In other words, could I have two series/parallel/single coil switches -- one for each pickup?

Thanks,

peter

JOME77 · #5 03-28-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbasswil

Not quick enough! What, were you guys waiting to pounce as soon as I posted?? Did you pop into phone booths to change before flying to my rescue? ;^>

I've been lurking on the Roscoe forum long enough to recognize those suggestions. I may well try replacing at least one pickup. I have to confess though: I suspect I'd like the bridge p.u. just fine if it was a little further from the bridge. But carving up this beautiful top is obviously not an option.

Another TalkBasser, Maurilio, installed a switch that lets him choose between series (Roscoe default), parallel, and single-coil. He says that opened things up a lot for him. (Also, he prefers a Demeter preamp.)
I think the coil tap switching would be the cheapest and easiest thing to try first; what do you think?

I actually love the Roscoe Demeter pre and have a Demeter pre coming soon. It definitely tames the mid's and provides some real nice glassy highs and smooth lows. Unforunately, it can tame the mid's a bit too much (depending on the woods of the bass). I really like the sound though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbasswil

Question: does going from series to parallel refer to how the two pickups are wired in relation to each other? Or does it refer to the relation between the 2 (or is it 4?) coils _within_ each pickup? In other words, could I have two series/parallel/single coil switches -- one for each pickup?

Thanks,

peter

The series/parallel switching changes the wiring of the internal coils within EACH p/u from: series to parallel (or parallel to series). The output is considerably lower in the parallel wiring (maybe 1/2) so you may not really like it.
The single-coil wiring would be a cool thing to try though and might help you achieve what you're looking for.
And you are correct, the positioning of the bridge p/u does contribute to what you're hearing.

I like it but some players more use to the traditional Jazz bass sound don't.

pbasswil · #6 03-28-2009, 11:13 AM

Thanks Joe, that's more valuable perspective for me. I notice Nordstrand does a soapbar where they tailor the output voltage to whether you plan on using it parallel or series.

I must say that I'm feeling fairly conflicted today. I've got a beaut of a bass, and I like looking at it and touching it. But only 1 day after receiving it, I'm not that drawn to play it -- cuz I spend all my time fiddling with the controls. :^{

Before you guys did your mods, did you ever have the feeling that something is just not _right_ with your Roscoe? I don't know how much the mahogany body plays into this, but the frequency response is just a wacky curve -- all sorts of troughs and peaks. There's no real way to tame it with the controls. There's plenty of mids -- but _weird_ mids, not smoothly satisfying ones.

I could easily spend 5 to 7 hundred of my emaciated 80¢ Canadian dollars for new pickups and preamp and switches and installation in an attempt to iron this curve out.
And I still won't know if I'll be happy with it until I've already spent the money. It's not the prospect I was expecting to be presented with when I ordered this beauty. :^(

Sorry for the gloom, but I'm feeling anxious and uncertain.

Peter

CactusmanDoug · #7 03-28-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbasswil

Thanks Joe, that's more valuable perspective for me. I notice Nordstrand does a soapbar where they tailor the output voltage to whether you plan on using it parallel or series.

I must say that I'm feeling fairly conflicted today. I've got a beaut of a bass, and I like looking at it and touching it. But only 1 day after receiving it, I'm not that drawn to play it -- cuz I spend all my time fiddling with the controls. :^{

Before you guys did your mods, did you ever have the feeling that something is just not _right_ with your Roscoe? I don't know how much the mahogany body plays into this, but the frequency response is just a wacky curve -- all sorts of troughs and peaks. There's no real way to tame it with the controls. There's plenty of mids -- but _weird_ mids, not smoothly satisfying ones.

I could easily spend 5 to 7 hundred of my emaciated 80¢ Canadian dollars for new pickups and preamp and switches and installation in an attempt to iron this curve out.
And I still won't know if I'll be happy with it until I've already spent the money. It's not the prospect I was expecting to be presented with when I ordered this beauty. :^(

Sorry for the gloom, but I'm feeling anxious and uncertain.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Mods-

Living light years from any real bass store, I bought my first Roscoe on the internet and enjoyed the tone and what all until I heard the Nordy/ Audere combo. The change took all the mud and compressed sound out which is what I greatly prefer.

My Spanish Cedar body was described by others as darker than ash and they were correct but I did initially like the tone.
I found my new electonics opened things up in a very welcome way. I'm not sure what you are experiencing with the Mahogany body so I'm no help there.

Joe and others will have much more depth than myself with your specific issues but on the bright side, if all fails you will be able to sell your bass for at least what you've got into it.

I trust you will find a solution and be able to enjoy your fine bass.

pbasswil · #8 03-28-2009, 02:12 PM

Thanks for your comforting words, Doug. It's true, if I don't get what I want out of this instrument, it certainly won't be a write-off.

I just don't know if I'm up for all the friggin' around with electronics and mail ordering and luthiery, etc, right at this moment (and still with the uncertainty that I'll finally be happy). My dad died recently and I'm executor, so I've already got a lot on my plate.

Evan at Bass Northwest has a very accommodating return policy -- within 72 hours of receipt -- so I'm going to seriously consider my options over this weekend.

You made humorous allusions to me selling the bass to you. If you're seriously interested, now would be the time to speak up, so that it becomes one of the options I consider!

Peter

dataBASS5 · #9 03-28-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbasswil

You made humorous allusions to me selling the bass to you. If you're seriously interested, now would be the time to speak up, so that it becomes one of the options I consider!

There is NOT a single remedy here. Yup, the only thing left to do is to sell it off at a significant discount.

Why don't you step in to Data's office so he can make everything better with his checkbook. . .

For once, I agree w/ Doug.

pbasswil · #10 03-28-2009, 06:39 PM

DataBass5 wrote:
>There is NOT a single remedy here. Yup, the only thing left to do is to sell it off at a significant discount.<

Er, huh??? :^)

I'm actually taking a breather tonight from trying to make a decision -- although I will make a choice before my 72 hour grace period finishes on Monday.

One things for sure, the tone isn't doing it for me in its current configuration. So I'll be choosing between
a) pouring significant time and money into controls and pu's in an attempt to mold it to my tastes -- or
b) I'll be shipping it back, or passing it to someone else who wants it.
But enough of that for now.

Question: Which exact Nordstrand pickups have some of you guys tried in your Roscoes?
The Dual Coil (wound for parallel but with a tap for single coil) looks right to me because
1) I like the sound of its J type coils and
2) because for the bridge pu, I could get it wired so that in single coil mode, the coil _further_ from the bridge would be the active one -- which would bring the physical sensing area closer to standard jazz-bass bridge pu territory.
I do fully realize a Roscoe will never sound like a Jazz bass, but I think this choice would increase my odds of getting a "standard" tone that I like, when the pu blend is around the centre.

What did any of you guys choose, for Nordstrands?

thanks,

Peter

Big Mother · #11 03-28-2009, 10:13 PM

I may be in the minority, but I love the Bart/Bart sound.
I was a little concerned at first when I got my Roscoe, but after a day of playing with a band, I was sold.
It really took me playing with a drummer, pretty loud, to get it.
Now I am totally sold on the tone, love love love it.
It sits well in a mix when recording, but does not get lost, strong and aggressive.
It may not be your cup of tea, but give it a chance and a little time to sink in. Try it with the band.

My .02

BM

pbasswil · #12 03-28-2009, 11:08 PM

Big Mother,

Who knows, maybe _I'd_ love the sound of _your_ Roscoe(s) with Bart/Bart too!
But to me, the way they sound on my 10 lb. mahogany bodied SKB is just not quite right.
With the pickup blend in the middle, I've been cranking the mids (@ 800Hz) up _full_, just to approach what I consider a balanced, full, clear sound -- and it still doesn't quite hit it. To my ears it's just oddly unsatisfying.
I do kinda like the neck pickup soloed; but it's that P bass type-a thing, that I wouldn't choose to use all the time.

Anyway, your 2¢ is appreciated, as is anyone else's.

Peter

jphilauren · #13 03-29-2009, 07:17 AM

Been following this thread the past few days, here's my 2 cents worth. I recently joined the Roscoe family by purchasing or adopting one the the twins SKB 3005 , the one with the cocobola top and back, Nordstand pickups, Audere preamp. before I made the jump I was able to research the Talkbass threads of original owner, and actually had a chance to email and discuss the tone of the bass. He had issues where he was not happy with the sound, not getting enough highs and separation in his tone. When the twin arrived I crossed my fingers, guess what,no problem with tone what so ever. I also love the option of the high Z switch to add a bit of high end and distortion. I also have a Modulus Quantum 5 with barts/barts, found the tone very flat, compressed, had to use the tone controls on the Modulus along with a slight tweak on amp to get my sound that I like. Every bass has their personality, that's why amps have tone controls too!
What amp and speaker set up are you using? This has as much to do with your sound/tone as your bass. Amps and speakers color the sound, speakers have certain frequency responses etc. No one has mentioned this as a factor. Tone is kinda of in the ear of the beholder! One's lousy tone is another's dream.Like I said, just my 2 cents worth.

pbasswil · #14 03-29-2009, 09:41 AM

jphilauren,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm glad to hear you're happy with your tone with the Nords and Audere. Can you tell me if they're the Dual Coil Nords (2 symmetric straight lines of pole pieces on either side of the housing), or one of the stacked variants (diagonally staggered pole pieces down the center)?

I'm pretty confident that switching to one of these more hifi combos of preamp and pickups would improve things a lot. I just have a slight concern that some the odd freq. response I'm hearing might be due to the mahogany or something else on this specific bass; but I couldn't know for sure until I do the upgrade.

If I decide to keep the bass and do the mods, I'll do it whole hog -- probably Nords or Bart CB, Audere, and coil switching (all mail ordered and subject to Cdn. taxes, and then professionally installed). It will increase my cost of ownership by 20 to 25%. I may go for it, but I'm going to sleep on it for one more night.

I also have a Modulus Quantum, a 6 from the early 90's, but with EMGs and the simple 2 band EMG preamp. I find the tone pretty hifi, although the higher strings lack some body -- which I've experienced before in other graphite necked basses. But a little EQ fattens it up, and it records well.

I've been playing for 30 years, and I know not to judge a bass by one quirky speaker or amp. I've done my listening and playing thru 3 different good quality amps, including an SWR SM-400 thru a good full range speaker.

I've tried it thru these 3 amps both with everything set flat, and then also trying every available EQ. I've never before had any trouble getting a satisfying all-around, default sound out of any of these 3 with any bass.

There are lots of fun sounds in this SKB; but it's an everyday, balanced, workaday tone that's eluding me. With a lot of EQ I can certainly approach "good" with this axe (especially with neck p.u.); but I didn't buy it in order to approach good with a lot of EQ. There's just something unsatisfying and uneven about the blended p.u. response. Which may well be fixable with new electronics, as everyone's saying.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself.

All perspectives are welcome!

Peter

pbasswil · #15 03-29-2009, 11:22 AM

RETRACTION

Yesterday I was burning out from obsessing on the bass, so at one point I just put it in its case and left it there overnight.

Today, with fresh perspective, I took it out and played it thru my flattest amp/cab combo.

I think I've been impugning it -- looking for the problem to lie somewhere in the bass. Today I realize:
There's nothing wrong with the tone of this SKB.
In fact, my wife thinks it sounds dandy.

The issue is: its mids don't cut at the frequency that I want to hear them cut; but they DO cut at a different frequency, where I don't want to hear them so much.
Simple as that. It has a basic tone that is not quite my cup of tea (and I can't really mold it to my tastes with the EQ).

But some other player would play this bass and be totally blown away by the sound.

Peter

JOME77 · #16 03-29-2009, 12:46 PM

Peter,
Mahogany bodied Roscoe's aren't for everyone. If you notice, Keith doesn't build that many anymore. They can be a bit unpredictable and hard to tame. It think that he actually made the switch to Spanish cedar as a more predictable alternative to mahogany.

I will say this though, the guys that I know that really liked their mahogany bodied Roscoe's, loved them after they installed the Demeter preamp. I also know of a couple of Roscoe owners that had ash Roscoe's that really struggled with controlling the mid's until they installed the Roscoe Demeter. Maybe they'll see this thread and chime in (emjazz, maconbass, Jerry Ziarko).
That's the last that I'll say about the Roscoe Demeter (today)!

Funkinthetrunk · #17 03-29-2009, 01:22 PM

Pbass,

If you lived in my area, I'd do all the electronic mods for ya...no charge of course.

Been nothing but happy with my coil splitter. It even made the stock Bart pup sound better being split. But in the end, I went with Nords DC.

Gerry

jphilauren · #18 03-29-2009, 04:05 PM

Here's my Roscoe with the Nordstands, has the Hi Z switch and and or low boost, can't switch from series. I would also suggest downloading from the Thunderfunk site http://www.thunderfunk.com the owners manual. There are a couple of pages that deal with tone adjustments, what can be heard, how room accoustics affect sound. I have switched to Thunderfunk and Euphonic Audio cabs after playing for years through Ampeg and SWR cabs and amps.
Interesting that you mention the mahogany body. I have Alembic basses, their standard body wood is mahogany. Just recently spoke to a person would is now selling a 5 string custom Essence on ebay and talkbass, he wasn't happy with tone of the Alembic, one reason he stated was that the body was swamp ash.

dataBASS5 · #19 03-29-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphilauren

Here's my Roscoe with the Nordstands, has the Hi Z switch and and or low boost, can't switch from series.

Holy priceless collection of Roscoe wood, Batman!

What IS that top and fingerboard combo? And who made those knobs for you? THG? I'm assuming Carey made the pup covers. . .

VroomVroom · #20 03-30-2009, 08:35 AM

FWIW, my two cents, questions, etc..?

- Have you heard this instrument in a mix, or solo only? The reason I ask...I hear the same sort of upper mid emphasis on my fretted SKB. Soloed, it can be a bit overbearing, but in a mix...oh, my. I more than happily accept this compromise, because in a live setting the bass just sounds incredible, with no subset of the frequency range lost or emphasized.

- I'm stubborn and grumpy, but I stand by my belief that the instrument either has it, or it doesn't. "It," of course, is subjective. I like to play with everything flat, and will begrudgingly boost or cut here and there, and even more rarely move that blend knob...but it's got to be for the room, not the bass. Instruments that don't fit my little niche? I either don't buy 'em, or I sell them pretty quickly after realizing my mistake.

- I love the Bartolini setup in these instruments. If fact, to my ears, it just simply defines the Roscoe sound. I've played a few basses now with non-Bartolini electronics in some fashion, and to me everything I love about the sound was somehow masked by things I don't like. I say this only to suggest thinking twice before swapping/modifying electronics. Sure, you may remove a bit of "honk," but what else are you removing...or adding...simultaneously. It's a dangerous game IMO.

- I'd like to agree with Joe that it could be the mahogany, but for that matter, it could just be the wood, period. Every bass - same woods or not, same electronics or not, sounds unique. I've played Roscoes that I thought for sure would be right in my wheelhouse, and...not so much. Right for someone of course, just not me.

I guess my point is that I hope you can hear this instrument in the context of "your" environment - band, jam session, recording project, whatever - prior to making any decision. If, at that point, it's not working for you, I'd suggest that it's just not the right axe for your arsenal. You can spend a lot of money and time trying to make that square peg fit the round hole, and there's no way of knowing it'll happen. As always, IMO, IME, yada yada.

Good luck with everything...