Why not wooden electronics cover?

[Filip St.]

Hi there!

First of all, let me say that I've been GASing for a Roscoe for quite some time... I think that they are one of the most beautiful basses ever... The body shapes, fingerboards and tops are one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen... There is just one thing that is REALLY bothering me... The black electronic and battery covers... To me a big black patch on such a nice piece of wood is hideous... I would just want to ask will the wooden covers (from the body itself of course, so it would fit seamlessly, like for example on a F Bass) EVER be introduced as an option? I seriously doubt that I will ever be able to cope with that big black plastic cover...
Which would be a shame as I would really like to one day make a Roscoe my first boutique bass... Thanks

[Gard]

Why no wood covers? Because they're a PITA to work with, they break about 25% of the time in production, and they have no advantage in any "real" sense over a plastic or aluminum cover.

We prefer to put the effort that a wood cover would take into other aspects of our instrument and save that labor cost, which then keeps the retail price of the bass down.

If we were to go to a wood cover, it would likely add about $200+ to the retail due to the additional labor involved, all for something that has zero effect on the sound or playability of the bass. And, as it is on the back, it has a limited and/or questionable effect on the appearance (no one sees the back when you're playing the bass! ).

[Tony G]

Yeah, I never really understood the need for a wood cover, especially if it isn't bookmatched to the back itself. Personally, my favorite type of control cavity covers are the ones that Warwick makes that they just pop in and out with a tab, intead of having to unscrew about 20 screws... This is especially important to the battery compartment. Even better is to have those swinging compartments that have easy load and unload of the battery. I don't know why more people don't use those...

[Gard]

Originally Posted by xgabriele

Yeah, I never really understood the need for a wood cover, especially if it isn't bookmatched to the back itself. Personally, my favorite type of control cavity covers are the ones that Warwick makes that they just pop in and out with a tab, intead of having to unscrew about 20 screws... This is especially important to the battery compartment. Even better is to have those swinging compartments that have easy load and unload of the battery. I don't know why more people don't use those...

We've looked at the pop-out battery compartments a couple of times. Two things keep us from going there:

1: Failure rate of the pop-outs - while at Bass Central, I regularly saw basses with these having issues with the contacts weakening or the catch on the cover breaking.

2: The fact that what we have, while maybe "primitive" in comparison, just plain WORKS, 100% of the time.

Also, they're "surface mount", so it "sticks out" off the back of the body a bit, and the depth of them didn't work well with the thickness of our bass where the battery goes (remember, they're carved, and along the edge it's thinner than a lot of other basses).

If we ever find a source for pop ups that seem robust enough and will work well with the size we need, we would definitely look into them seriously.

[Ryan L.]

I think it was Brad Johnson who, IMHO, summed up the control cavity cover issue the best in another thread. He said that the only time he sees it is for a brief moment when he is strapping on his bass, and then for a brief moment when he takes the bass off. That's pretty close to what he said, anyway.

But I do agree. And personally, I see no problem with plastic/aluminum covers. Like others have said--they are on the back of the bass. And personally, I would much rather have something that is not going to be prone to warpage/cracking over the years. The wooden cover on my old F Bass BN6 had an issue like that--there was a tiny crack starting by one of the screw holes. Granted, it was small, but it was there. Probably going to get bigger over time. I've never had an aluminum or plastic cover with this problem. And I really don't care for the upcharge on a bass, on an item that I normally don't look at anyway.

[Diego]

I believe than rather discussing the material of the cover, there are other issues that seem more important IMHO. For example why not try to use cavity covers without any screws. Warwick has done this as was pointed out in a previous reply (although I personally find the ugly). But what about aluminum or plastic covers "fastened" to the body using small magnets (like Eshembaugh does). I think this could be useful and aesthetically pleasing in a Roscoe. Thoughts?

Diego

[Filip St.]

Originally Posted by Gard

Why no wood covers? Because they're a PITA to work with, they break about 25% of the time in production, and they have no advantage in any "real" sense over a plastic or aluminum cover.

We prefer to put the effort that a wood cover would take into other aspects of our instrument and save that labor cost, which then keeps the retail price of the bass down.

If we were to go to a wood cover, it would likely add about $200+ to the retail due to the additional labor involved, all for something that has zero effect on the sound or playability of the bass. And, as it is on the back, it has a limited and/or questionable effect on the appearance (no one sees the back when you're playing the bass! ).

Thanks for your reply...

As for the limited effect, I agree, I understand, that I'm in minority when it comes to wooden vs plastic/aluminium covers. I also understand the constructional advantages of classic covers and the cheapness of them. What I wanted to know, were you ever thinking of putting it as an OPTION? I would be ready to pay that extra 200 bucks, but I could not ask the same from everybody else... So I would just like to see this as an option for look freaks like me Hey, if Carey Nordstrand can do it why can't you?

[Jeff Moote]

I'm in agreement with those that say it just doesn't matter enough on the back to worry about it.

A real issue though is the way the covers, especially for batteries, are fixed to the bass. Eshenbaugh has a cool design with the magnets, but even some brass inserts on the body side to receive a machine screw would make me feel better, since over time the wood screws can strip out of the body wood requiring a "drill and dowel" fix.

[greenbass]

Originally Posted by Filip St.

Thanks for your reply...

As for the limited effect, I agree, I understand, that I'm in minority when it comes to wooden vs plastic/aluminium covers. I also understand the constructional advantages of classic covers and the cheapness of them. What I wanted to know, were you ever thinking of putting it as an OPTION? I would be ready to pay that extra 200 bucks, but I could not ask the same from everybody else... So I would just like to see this as an option for look freaks like me Hey, if Carey Nordstrand can do it why can't you?

Here's a few other luthiers that can do it I not sure of the fee

George Furlanet (Fbass)
Mike Tobias (MTD)
Pavel (pavelmi.com)

My OPINION on this is that Roscoe's cost too much to have plastic covers. IMO

[Filip St.]

Originally Posted by greenbass

Here's a few other luthiers that can do it I not sure of the fee

George Furlanet (Fbass)
Mike Tobias (MTD)
Pavel (pavelmi.com)

My OPINION on this is that Roscoe's cost too much to have plastic covers. IMO

I don't know for Pavel but I thought that on Fbass and MTD wooden covers are standard, and you get them witout an extra fee but at Carey Nordstrand's price list there is an OPTION for wooden electronic cover (which, I think, pays an extra 200 bucks)

[Gard]

Originally Posted by greenbass

Here's a few other luthiers that can do it I not sure of the fee

George Furlanet (Fbass)
Mike Tobias (MTD)
Pavel (pavelmi.com)

My OPINION on this is that Roscoe's cost too much to have plastic covers. IMO

Interesting. So, do USA Laklands and USA Sadowskys cost too much for plastic covers as well? (FYI, both are priced higher than Roscoes)

Most players appreciate the sound and playability of an instrument and don't spend much time focusing on non-tonal/playing aspects of the bass that can't be seen by anyone other than the person that owns it, and then only when they're not actually playing it.

We don't think there is anything wrong with the builders that DO use wood covers (you left out two of my favorite styles of these, by the way: Pedulla and Elrick ), we just choose to focus on what matters in the long run and not spend a great deal of time, effort, and resources on something that isn't truly functional and has minimal impact on appearance.

We have tried to do wood covers, and wasted a lot of time and wood in the process, this is why we no longer do it. If we find a method that works without great amounts of time and waste, we may eventually offer it as an option.

Jeff's observation on the threaded inserts is a good one, and we are looking into it for the future. I like the magnet idea as well, and FYI Dingwall did it on their active basses before anyone I'm aware of (not saying they did it first, just they were the first I'm aware of).

[Gard]

Originally Posted by Filip St.

...the cheapness of them...

I write the checks for parts and materials here, and I think I'd use a different word than "cheap" for our covers.



The fact is, that in MATERIALS cost, doing wood covers would be CHEAPER. It is the labor and waste that causes us not to use it.

[Filip St.]

Originally Posted by Gard

I write the checks for parts and materials here, and I think I'd use a different word than "cheap" for our covers.



The fact is, that in MATERIALS cost, doing wood covers would be CHEAPER. It is the labor and waste that causes us not to use it.

Yeah, I know that.... I was thinking of labor costs

[CrashClint]

Originally Posted by Gard

I like the magnet idea as well, and FYI Dingwall did it on their active basses before anyone I'm aware of (not saying they did it first, just they were the first I'm aware of).

Do you mean there is something out there on a bass that Ken Smith didn't claim to do first?

I was at Home Depot, they sell the brass threaded inserts for a couple bucks, I have been thinking of having them installed. I definitely think they are a value added option to just screwing into the wood.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by CrashClint

Do you mean there is something out there on a bass that Ken Smith didn't claim to do first?

I was at Home Depot, they sell the brass threaded inserts for a couple bucks, I have been thinking of having them installed. I definitely think they are a value added option to just screwing into the wood.

+1

I still like the idea of no screws (use magnets) better...but if you go with screws, brass threaded inserts are definitely the way to go IMO.

[greenbass]

I've read a lot of the reviews of HIGH END basses in BassPlayer Magazine and those basses that don't have the threaded inserts it is added as one of the CONS of that instrument. It is up to the luthier to take the added value suggestion and put it into production.

Roscoe's are beautiful instruments and Keith pays great attention to the details of his basses. I just think he needs to step it up a notch and add the wood covers. (maybe match the neck wood)ex. purple heart in the neck add Purpleheart wood covers. the same with wenge..

Yeah we the customer as well as the Luthiers that do the wooden covers know it doesn't add anything to the sound. It's a Value-Added option. Gard you have added a lot of Value added options to the Roscoe Basses ..Lets make those Wooden covers happen. The customers want that option and you know the saying the customer is always right. Save the plastic covers for your non exotic top basses.

[Gard]

Originally Posted by greenbass

I've read a lot of the reviews of HIGH END basses in BassPlayer Magazine and those basses that don't have the threaded inserts it is added as one of the CONS of that instrument. It is up to the luthier to take the added value suggestion and put it into production.

Roscoe's are beautiful instruments and Keith pays great attention to the details of his basses. I just think he needs to step it up a notch and add the wood covers. (maybe match the neck wood)ex. purple heart in the neck add Purpleheart wood covers. the same with wenge..

Yeah we the customer as well as the Luthiers that do the wooden covers know it doesn't add anything to the sound. It's a Value-Added option. Gard you have added a lot of Value added options to the Roscoe Basses ..Lets make those Wooden covers happen. The customers want that option and you know the saying the customer is always right. Save the plastic covers for your non exotic top basses.

Nakia, I appreciate your comments. We are looking into doing threaded inserts, but it isn't quite as simple as it may look! We make each set of plates for each bass, they are not retrofitable without modification, instead each set is unique to each bass. We are working to change this aspect of our build, but it won't happen overnight.

As for wood covers, we may eventually offer them as an additonal option, but we have no plans to ever make them standard on any bass. There is no pressing reason, as the number of requests for this so far has been, literally, two. Both in this thread.

[Sheldon D.]

We use or have used threaded inserts due mainly to satisfy customer requests.

When I used to do repairs, any instrument with threaded inserts that came by my shop usually had a missing screw or two. This meant a side trip to the machine shop supply store. Finding a match was difficult and expensive time wise. If the screws were metric we were pretty much out of luck.

We had lots of instruments come through with missing self-tapping screws (standard pickguard type) too, but in comparison, they were a much more common guitar shop item and stripped hole repair was pretty simple.

From a repair stand point, I preferred the self-tapping screws in longer lengths.

Regarding wood vs plastic. We do both. Wood requires a much thicker plate. In our case this forces us to make the body thicker. Wood looks nicer if you're into the all wood look, plastic is tougher and won't warp.

It costs us more than $200 retail to build a set of wood ones.

YMMV

Yo Gard. How are you doing?

[Gard]

I'm great man, how're you doin' up there in the Great White North?

Good to see you 'round man...



Thanks for the comments, we seem to see this pretty eye-to-eye.

Again, we're looking at the threaded insert thing, but you brought up one of the issues I didn't mention yet, but thanks for putting that issue forward - you lose that screw, you're...well...for lack of a better word: screwed.



The positive of the self-tapping wood screw method is that it is eminently replaceable if lost (you COULD just go to Lowe's or Home Depot and find one that will be more than functional!), if there is a problem with it stripping out the wood, it's very simple to fix - just find a toothpick or wooden matchstick and all is resolved.

Funny how the reviews in magazines focus on the "sexy" details like threaded inserts, but never mention the downsides of them, hm?

As for the wood covers, again, maybe as an option one day, but until we engineer a working method, it won't occur. And, (yes, Nakia, just TWO ) until there is a serious demand, we can't justify the R&D to make it happen.

I still think it's a lot of effort to give your bellybutton something pretty to look at....

[Diego]

Gard,

What about screw-less covers? As you pointed aout previously, Sheldon D, has done this for his instruments with nice results. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does not magnetic-fastened covers would actually be less labor intensive, more practical...and well, IMO, nicer?

Diego