Air Force Band - Bass Opening

[natbers78]

OK KillerQ, lets count together...it'll be fun!!

1.

To answer your question though about what happens if you end up sucking at the gig: you'll be given all the chances in the world to succeed. I've seen (only a few times) a member just not perform well (usually because they get complacent once they win a real gig), and they are informed that they must begin private lessons with someone of their choice. And guess what...the Air Force pays for the lessons: it's considered part of your "training." If, at the end of lessons you still just suck it up, you'll finish your enlistment in the Band but not be allowed to re-enlist in the Band career field. Now, if you WANT to re-enlist in some other job and cross train, that's all up to you. But most of these people just get out.

AND

2.

Now - this *is* important - if you get the gig, and for some reason aren't cutting it (behavior, not living up to expected skill levels, etc) it's reasonable to consider you for reassignment. However, it takes quite a bit of work to get to that point, and numerous opportunities will be given before doing that. I've never seen it happen, either. The one time I saw someone not cutting it removed from a band, he was put out of the AF (and I think that was his choice).

Both posted in this thread by current members of the USAF Band. Thanks.

[Pacman]

So, to try to bring this thread back around to its intended purpose, 4 current members of Air Force bands have given their advice. I'm sure I speak for all of them when I say if anyone is interested, we'd be happy to offer any more information on the subject.

Several other members with little knowledge (and zero first-hand knowledge) have also offered their perspective. If you're considering listening to them, I say consider the source.

Sorry your thread got spun out of control, airmanjerm. If you want to close it and start another (more closely moderated), let me know.

[airmanjerm]

Originally Posted by Pacman

So, to try to bring this thread back around to its intended purpose, 4 current members of Air Force bands have given their advice. I'm sure I speak for all of them when I say if anyone is interested, we'd be happy to offer any more information on the subject.

Several other members with little knowledge (and zero first-hand knowledge) have also offered their perspective. If you're considering listening to them, I say consider the source.

Sorry your thread got spun out of control, airmanjerm. If you want to close it and start another (more closely moderated), let me know.

No, let's leave it up. I think it's good for potential AF Band members to see that there are people out there who have absolutely no knowledge about our career field but pretend to know everything.


We are the UNITED STATES AIR FORCE. We are not the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps, or the Coast Guard. Sorry jzucker, but your 3 years in the Army Field Band 30 years ago gives you no knowledge of what we do now. People in the Army Field Band RIGHT NOW don't know what we do. I've been in the Air Force Bands over 10 years, and Pacman has nearly 25 years combined in the Army and Air Force band programs. Natbers has been in for close to 10 years as well.

We know what we're talking about. jzucker, killerquebec, and many other folks on here do not. This is a fact. I'm not sure why so much animosity toward this posting, from a few people who are totally ignorant of our career field.

I do appreciate the others who don't know anything but have heard the AF Bands and recognize that it is an excellent organization. Thanks for your compliments, and special thanks for not offering incorrect information.



Why ask someone to post the AFI (Air Force Instruction - basically, "the rules"), then completely ignore it? Because it proved you and your worthless information to be bogus and incorrect, that's why. So, let's look at the information you didn't read:

" Internal Utilization. Members of regional and ANG bands must perform regularly with at least one component of the band, as directed by the band commander. Chief master sergeants or senior master sergeants assigned to the duty positions of band manager and/or superintendent are exempt from this requirement.
8.3.2. External Utilization. Band members must not be given other duties by external agencies that interfere with performances, rehearsals, preparations, other musical duties, or scheduled down time.
8.3.2.1. Rehearsals are training missions, dynamic in nature, and essential to mission success. Musical missions are often scheduled at night, on weekends, and holidays. Compensatory down time is vital. Neither training missions nor down time should be interfered with. Individual musicians should not be scheduled for other duties when they conflict with a unit rehearsal, performance, or scheduled down time.
8.3.2.2. The wartime mission of bands remains the same as the peacetime mission, with the additional responsibility of deploying to theaters of operations. In wartime, bands must perform their primary mission. Band members must remain with their units during contingency operations or general war. Bands cannot fulfill their wartime mission unless all assigned personnel are available to perform their musical duties. Exercises and contingency training must not interfere with scheduled band engagements or band operational training. Note: Band members may be treated as part of the base manpower pool during local real-world disaster situations. "


Yeah, it's a little long. Read all of it though: it states very clearly that you will continue to serve your musical role, even in wartime. I draw attention to the very last paragraph on purpose to show that yes, there is a chance that you could be utilized for manpower during base emergencies. But I've never seen this happen, ever. [Even on 9/11 we were merely sent home.] And if it ever gets to the point that THE BAND is having to carry a weapon then the rest of you just go ahead and get ready, because if they're scraping the bottom for gun-holders that desperately then they'll be reinstating the draft soon and then you'll be in the military anyways.

KillerQuebec: Yes, I answered your question, and so did Pacman. We didn't sidestep a thing, you just didn't read it.


I've clarified this point repeatedly - as have others who actually know how the AIR FORCE BANDS work IN THE YEAR 2010.

I'll say this once more: if anybody has read through the B.S. this far and is interested in this gig, don't listen to those trying to pretend they know anything. PM me (or Pacman, or Natbers) and we'll get you the info you need to apply. I've already had several folks interested and received several packages in the mail from people who want a killer bass gig. Lucky for them, I just happen to have access to one! I'm looking forward to the live audition.

Have a great Air Force Day!

[KillerQuebec]

You know, you guys can call me a fool all you want, but all you guys have done is sidestep the questions, like good recruiters do.

I have no doubt that this is one of the best gigs you can get, if you get it.

So I'll ask it again, WHAT HAPPENS IF, AFTER YOU SIGN UP, AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE CHOPS TO BE IN THE BAND. AND THEY DECIDE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE IN THE BAND. WHAT HAPPENS?????

This is a simple question. You guys are using car salesman techniques to try to discredit me. Dudes, you are recruiters, you are in sales. So boys and girls, consider the source.

In the beginning of this thread, I thought, well maybe I'm misinformed and things are different now. But the more i read these responses, the more it gives me pause.

A guy walks in off the street with no music background and says he want to play on the AF band, he is getting signed up immediately. and the recruiter knows dam well he ain't getting into no band.

If these recruiters would just admit that not everyone who signs up for some job actually gets that job. And that there is a chance you may not end up in wine country playing for VIP's. Just be honest guys.

Because in the end, if you find yourself not in an AF band, you can't sue the recruiter.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by KillerQuebec

A guy walks in off the street with no music background and says he want to play on the AF band, he is getting signed up immediately. and the recruiter knows dam well he ain't getting into no band.
.

Well somebody is a fool there, as in the first post it says quite clearly :

"Applicants should be well-rounded performers, capable of performing styles including classical, rock, and jazz. You must also be able to read music, including lead sheets/changes and traditional written notation."

I think if you can't even be bothered to read the requirements, then you shouldn't be considering this in any way!

[natbers78]

KillerQ, every post you put up just adds to your ignorance about this subject. Please, take a minute and read the document I put up and stop making yourself look like an idiot.

[KillerQuebec]

And I wish you guys would take a breath and step back.

Even a crap job in the AF is better than most great billets in the other branches.

A recruiter cannot guaranty a recruit any specific duty or location. That is a cold hard fact.

Are their opportunities for bass players in AF bands? You betcha!! If you have what it takes to get into an AF band and stay there, this sounds like a it could be a good thing.

Please stop the name calling. I'll just start posting links to endless reports of people being deceived by military recruiters. Then we can let the readers decide who is telling the truth.

If you didn't want any push back on recruiting, don't do it in an open forum. and I'm not even saying don't do it. I'm saying "go for it!" Just be informed. That's all.

Remember, somewhere, a highly trained Secret Service Protection Officer is picking up some dog poop. Even the best sounding gig can have some negatives.

Dismissed!

[Febs]

Originally Posted by KillerQuebec

So I'll ask it again, WHAT HAPPENS IF, AFTER YOU SIGN UP, AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE CHOPS TO BE IN THE BAND. AND THEY DECIDE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE IN THE BAND. WHAT HAPPENS?????

Originally Posted by KillerQuebec

A guy walks in off the street with no music background and says he want to play on the AF band, he is getting signed up immediately. and the recruiter knows dam well he ain't getting into no band.

As I read the initial post and the website it links to, the recruit has to audition first, and only after a successful audition is he or she signed up for the Air Force.

Edit: My understanding appears to be confirmed here:

Upon successfully getting through the audition, applicants are officially invited to join the Air Force Band. At this time they will need to complete enlistment into the United States Air Force Band and the US Air Force.

[airmanjerm]

KillerQuebec:

I think the problem here is that you don't understand how the audition process works. OK I can see that, and I'll try to clear that up.

First, you don't just walk into a recruiter's office. If somebody does that somewhere, that's their own fault for not looking into their career.

If you want this gig, you have to audition for it. That audition takes place BEFORE you are ever in the Air Force. At that point, you haven't signed anything yet.

If you are selected for the gig, you will be given (by our folks) an Air Force Form 485. This is a form which GUARANTEES your position in the band you have auditioned for. At this point, the winning applicant goes to visit his/her local recruiter (wherever they live), and the AF Form 485 instructs the recruiter on what to do next. From our end, your enlistment will be handled by members of the AF Bands Division at the Pentagon in Washington D.C. These are members of our career field whose job is to ensure that accessions ("getting you in") is handled smoothly and properly.

At this point, those folks at the Pentagon will be in touch with the winning applicant, and will get your recruiter's contact info from you. VERY often, recruiters don't have any clue about what happens with band members. So, the Pentagon Bands Division folks will contact your recruiter directly TO ENSURE that the recruiter understands what they are to do:

1. They ensure the recruiters get you signed up for a Basic Training class that allows your participation in the Drum & Bugle Corps flight while you are spending your 8 weeks in basic training.
2. They ensure the recruiter understands that you are enlisting to be assigned to the Air Force Band, AFSC 3N1X1X. That's your career field (and code for it), that's the base you're going to, and the recruiter is NOT to mess with that. Even if the recruiter tried to mess with that (which they will not), you've got a group of folks at the Bands Division in the Pentagon who will fix it. No, a recruiter can't guarantee ANYTHING, but our folks at the Pentagon CAN AND DO.

We've gone to the trouble to audition and find a really good player, which takes time and effort on our part. We are musicians too, so we know how much time and training YOU have had, and we're not going to let you just get "absorbed" into the system and never see you again because some recruiter somewhere was trying to fill a quota or something. We're a VERY small career field, so we keep tabs on where our people are - including our incoming members.

Right now I've got a trumpet player who is at Basic Training, and I keep up with him while he's there. We've got a euphonium player who just won our vacancy, but is having to wait until a bone heals before he can ship off to basic training.

After basic training, you fly directly to your base (or take a week or so of vacation/leave before reporting to your base). We will know where you are, and by this point the Bands Division will have you listed on the Unit Manning Document (UMD) at our band. This means you are assigned to us, so you will Out-Process from being assigned to your training squadron at Lackland, then In-Process to Travis Air Force Base.

Now that you're at your base, you will take a one-week class called First Term Airman's Center. This is basically orientation to the base, and every new Airman has to do it. It's very laid back and relaxed, and isn't a big deal at all.

After that, you're done with "the rest" of the Air Force. You'll still deal with people at the hospital when you go for your check-up, or with people at the finance office when they mess up and forget to take out your GI Bill payment. You'll deal with some great folks, and some that can't even SPELL "customer service." But you're totally done with getting into the position.

NOW: you're in the band. What happens next?

You'll start by picking out the gear you want. (This is typically a very exciting period! haha) You'll also get issued some performance uniforms (you don't pay for these). You'll meet all the folks (we have about 45 people in each band, so it doesn't take long), and you'll get a desk or cubicle somewhere for when you do paperwork and stuff. You'll also be assigned your additional duty in the band. As a new Airman from basic training, you'll likely be assigned to the library to help file music when you're not in rehearsals. Typically, rehearsals are scheduled in the morning, and the afternoons for this type of work (or more rehearsals when necessary).

As you progress through your career, your additional duty will have more responsibility. For example, my additional duty is to be the unit's Auditions Coordinator. But, they are always things that support the Band itself, and you work in our building. You'll not be assigned any additional duty outside of the band (as the AFI states perfectly).

Because we've auditioned you we already know that you should be able to perform well. But if you end up not performing well, you'll go through the process I've already posted (which Pacman expanded on and Natbers re-posted).


Does that answer your questions? If not, ask away. I'm happy to answer your questions...that's why I am here! Just don't spread rumors or present your opinions as facts.

[airmanjerm]

Originally Posted by KillerQuebec

Heck, the Marines have even been known to send band members to perform combat missions in Iraq.

Yes, I mentioned that myself in an earlier post. And I really don't care, because I didn't join the Marine Corps. Also didn't join the Army or Navy...I joined the Air Force.

Who here doesn't understand? I'll say it again:

The Air Force Band does NOT have anything to do with the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps bands.

[natbers78]

I think I understand...wait...so the Marine Band doesn't do things the same way as the USAF Band? I don't know if I believe that. Has that been posted yet?

[JoshB]

I am going through this thread, and infractions WILL be handed out to those of you insulting other members, or giving misinformation.

I for one, mod status aside, think that it's VERY low brow that some of you would insult military officers in such a manner, especially ones held in such high regard in both their fields, as well as this website. Grow up, or kindly stay out of the thread. Continued insults, including name calling on both sides of the argument will result in a temp ban, no questions asked, or answered.

Consider this your first and only warning.

airmanjerm, my apologies for not catching this sooner. Carry on.

[JoshB]

Thread has been somewhat cleaned. Normally, I'd tell the OP to re-post the thread and nuke this one, but there have been somewhat valid questions, and very valid answers, so I am leaving the thread open for now.

Again, if you cannot keep a civil tongue in your head, (this goes for both sides of the argument...) I will give you an infraction or temp-ban with no second thoughts whatsoever. Please maintain your maturity, and do your research before spouting off at the mouth. It makes you look a lot less smart than you may actually be.

[DirtPoorRobins]

Originally Posted by KillerQuebec

A recruiter cannot guaranty a recruit any specific duty or location. That is a cold hard fact.

This has already basically been answered, but I'd like to make it very clear to prospects. A recruiter doesn't guarantee anything to you, but the United States Air Force DOES guarantee you that your job is in the band and DOES guarantee you where your first duty station will be.

Pretty much before you sign anything, this process is exactly like auditioning for any band, whether its the Glenn Miller band, Miley Cyrus' band, or for a symphony gig.

Also, we had this happen in our band. Amazing talented player, was in a lot of great bands prior to the Air Force (Stevie Wonder) but he had some issues adjusting to military life, and they let him go. As in, 3 years into his enlistment, they kindly told him, this is not for you, thank you for your service, you are now a civilian again, and he went back to LA and was a civilian musician.

[natbers78]

DPR, Thanks for helping to clean up the mess made by others!

[Roadstar]

Thank you for your service! Hollywood bowl, what a gig!

Originally Posted by airmanjerm

Wow guys. Just...wow. OK I'd love to ignore some of the total misinformation on here, but since it's my job to advertise this position, I guess I have to clear up all of the mess that's been posted so far.

Okay, here's the deal: if you're interested in a killer gig playing bass, this is for you. If you want to play in some places you'll probably never get to otherwise, this is for you.

If you're a conspiracy theorist who thinks that the Air Force Bands are really a front for some secretive mission to train undercover terrorist killers, then this is not the gig for you. Do you think we send bass players (or anybody else) to do that kind of work? We recruit CLARINET players...and they stay until RETIREMENT. Believe me, there's no Extra-Special Top-Secret Security Clearance because you know the secret Glenn Miller changes...

OK so I'll try to throw a few real responses out here:

MichaelVee:

Man, I wish you could join. I will correct you to a point that the age limit is not 33, it's 35. I guess you can call it age discrimination if you want, but unfortunately in this case we have to comply with Air Force regulations. They give us tons of leeway in so many areas, but this is one we can't fight. You have to be in by age 35 so that if you choose to make it a career and retire eventually, you'll be able to hit the 20-year minimum retirement mark by age 55, which is the mandatory retirement age. We could argue about that (and I'd probably agree with you for some of it I'm sure), but unfortunately it's just not something we can change.

JazzDog:

Thanks for the attention, and I completely understand asking what's gonna be expected. You know, my best music composition teacher ever was a guy named Robert Jager. He joined (well, got drafted into) the Navy in the Vietnam era and chose "Navy Trumpet Player" as his gig because at the time he was a music major at the University of Michigan. When he got to the School of Music in Norfolk, they didn't need any more trumpet players so they opened him up to cross-train, and during the process of choosing another career field his composition "Third Suite for Band" won the Ostwald Composition Contest (the highest honor for Band music Compositions). So, he cross trained and became an INSTRUCTOR at the School of Music.

That's a fun success story, but a bit of luck too, I'm sure. But I will point out the obvious that first, we're not the Navy, and also it's 2010 not 1980. We don't just overly recruit musicians like your average recruiter. We have ONE position, and we're going to hire exactly ONE guy to fill it. If we have 80 guys apply, we'll find the best ONE of them. We won't hire nine guys for one spot and just "hope" one of them works out. We'll take ONE DUDE (or GAL) and make sure they get through basic training successfully.

To answer your question though about what happens if you end up sucking at the gig: you'll be given all the chances in the world to succeed. I've seen (only a few times) a member just not perform well (usually because they get complacent once they win a real gig), and they are informed that they must begin private lessons with someone of their choice. And guess what...the Air Force pays for the lessons: it's considered part of your "training." If, at the end of lessons you still just suck it up, you'll finish your enlistment in the Band but not be allowed to re-enlist in the Band career field. Now, if you WANT to re-enlist in some other job and cross train, that's all up to you. But most of these people just get out.

Killer Quebec:

I appreciate your attention to the thread, and I know you're trying to help people out. I also appreciate that you have nothing against the military. But here's the deal: the things you are writing are just not accurate. I can 100% understand that you've known people to join the military and not end up doing what they joined for. I've known those guys too. But, I can tell you this: they weren't AIR FORCE Bandsmen, and by that I mean the U.S. Air Force. Not the Army, not the Navy, and not the Marine Corps. I mean the U.S. Air Force.

I have a friend (actually, former student from when I taught high school). He was pretty hard core and loved the Marine Corps concept of really hard core toughness. He also loved music, and wanted to join a Marine Corps band. So, he joined the Marine Corps band in Cherry Point, North Carolina. Know what he was doing in 2004? He put his drums down and carried a weapon into Iraq.

I'm being completely honest about that. But what you have to realize is that that is the Marine Corps and we are the AIR FORCE. We're not the same service as the Marine Corps, or the Army, or the Navy. We have totally different ...well, everything. We don't dissolve our bands and go carry weapons in war time. We go out into the public and just continue to do our jobs in order to garner support for our fellow troops who ARE in harm's way. That's what makes our career field a section of Air Force Public Affairs, and helping get support for my fellow troops is one of the reasons I enjoy my job.

I don't care how many people in whatever service you have known in the past, claim to have known, or whatever, you have NEVER known an Air Force Bandsman to have joined an Air Force Band and been forced into another military job. If you claim that, then you probably just don't understand the facts or the situation. We don't do that in our career field. I've known a few people who came into the Air Force as a bandsman and later decided they wanted to do something else...but that was completely their decision and in each of those cases we really hated to see them leave our unit.

Just because you mentioned it, here's a video of our rock band (WHICH WE NEED A BASS PLAYER FOR) performing at a pretty big deal gig in Sonoma, CA. (That is, Wine Country). It's maybe not anyone's favorite gig of their career, but it's an annual gig that draws all the famous and rich folks in the Napa/Sonoma area:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3bWMGYVLSA

While we're at it, here's a video of them performing at the NAMM Conference in L.A.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XCzd...eature=related

While I'm at it, here's a few of my favorites:

PLaying the National Anthem for an NFL game (we do this once or twice a year):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAbvRfmOttk

On July 2-4th this year we performed along with the L.A. Philharmonic and country music artist Vince Gill at the Hollywood Bowl. Here's a clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCk61psrlqg

These are all fun gigs, and fun ones to do. You know what we're doing for the next three weeks? Our concert band is going on an 8-day tour of places in San Diego and back up the coast, and then we're spending 4 days recording a CD. It's a lot of work, but I make a pretty decent living (not to mention the BENEFITS) doing it. And guess what...I'm not having to teach anymore, or play club gigs on the weekend to pay my electric bill!

So anyways, there's a few responses, and I know it's long post. I appreciate those of you just trying to look out for others, but let's be sure that people who are looking for a job have the best, most ACCURATE information. I don't mean to sound like a jerk or anything in any of my comments, but like NatBers said (a friend and fellow USAF Airman), it's really pointless to have to explain stuff to people who clearly don't know the facts but seem to have all the answers.

[mikeyswood]

What an incredible opportunity for an aspiring musician! It would be really cool if a TB'er got the gig!

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Why am I just now seeing this??? Hmmmm (rethinks reenlisting at end of the month lol). Man this is THE BOMB gig! And in Cali?? One of the best gigs ever. Ive made quite a few Air Force band friends and gotta say them cats dont ever look stressed at all LOLOL.

As an Army bandsman of 11 yrs I would like to say this thread has brought much entertainment to me by way of hilarious rumors and false statements. Heck alot of them dont even hold true to the Army bands these days. Just do your research and learn for yourself. If I had to do it all again, I would go in a minute.....in the AF LMBO! I love my job though, best decision Ive ever made. This is a WONDERFUL opportunity for someone. Don't let it pass!

*still thinking about it*

[BassGreaser]

I am 31 play both bass guitar and upright (for the past 15years) and have done a number of nation wide (3 month music tours) I have the skills to play at the level needed but I just dont know how to read music. Is there anyway to get around this and set up an auction to show my skills?

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by BassGreaser

I am 31 play both bass guitar and upright (for the past 15years) and have done a number of nation wide (3 month music tours) I have the skills to play at the level needed but I just dont know how to read music. Is there anyway to get around this and set up an auction to show my skills?

Sadly, reading is a key skill for this gig. Airmanjerm can speak specifically, but I doubt this is one you'll get around. When I got hired I didn't play upright at all, but played electric well enough to make up for it, and I read my tail off on the audition. I can't see a situation where a non-reader would get considered....