Chord Substitutions

ryanowens · #1 04-03-2007, 09:34 AM

Janek, How's it going?

I was wondering if you could offer a few suggestions on chord substitutions over a fairly static shord progression.

What modes or sounds would you play over say an Am to D7 vamp?

I've been looping the vamp with my line 6 pedal (Am to D7) and trying to play different modes of A over the vamp to hear the shounds but it still sounds pretty lame...... what are some modes or alterations of the modes that you would do to get the sounds you like?

Also do you tend to weave modes together to get the sound you want?

<ight be a good clip on youtube if you get the time to make a little loop to play over.... kinda like the NAMM 06 video of you playing over your loop on the line 6 pedal.

Thanks!
Ryan

janekbass · #2 04-03-2007, 11:06 AM

Ryan,

the first thing I would suggest, as I normally do when it comes to improvisation, is to transcribe.

I can sit here and tell you the mechanics of what might sound good over a vamp of two chords, but you'll only then sound like someone who was told what sounds good theoreticall.

For you to actually feel what it is that makes something sound good, and what makes it unique to you, you have to study the music from a listening and transcribing standpoint.

A good example of something to transcribe would be "Night Jessamine" from Michael Brecker's "Wide Angles" on Verve records. It's actually in the key you're talking about.

Transcribe the lines Michael is playing over the chord, and then try to analize the cells, blocks, and phrases of notes he's putting together. When you hear something "out" sounding, look for the key centre and this will let you know where Mike's mind was going to take it out of the original key centre. The more you get inside great improvisors heads the better. This will expand your pallet, your chops, your harmonic availability when it comes to your musical language, and your awareness of the possibilities when it comes to improvising. Namely that there are no limits!!!

From transcribing you will learn shape, form, tension, release, interaction, harmonic language, melodic language, sound, time, technique....... the list is pretty all inclusive of things that you need to be an improvising musician.

I hope this helps.

Easy,

Janek

ryanowens · #3 04-03-2007, 11:38 AM

Is there someting form you out there that I could transcribe that is like this? maybe a particular tune from your record?

Ryan

janekbass · #4 04-03-2007, 12:50 PM

Ryan,

not that I know of..... and I would stay away from transcribing other bass players. The more you transcribe another bass player, the more you'll start to sound like them.

Get into guitar players, sax players, piano players etc... and it'll take you further away from what you're used to, and put you in a space that maybe you haven't been in before. This will allow you the opportunity to work out some original ideas for yourself.

Easy,

Janek

DocBop · #5 04-03-2007, 01:39 PM

If I could throw my two cents in...

What I find is fun in these situations is to sit and write out a solo. Maybe give yourself a some parameters to work within, like specific scales/mode, use of chromatics, etc. Then sit and write a chorus out. When you have to write it you can see cool connecting notes and things that might go by too fast if just playing. Then learn the solo your wrote and refine it.

Also something I picked up from Joe Dorio the Jazz guitarist. He said one way to practice being creative is to put limitation on yourself. So force yourself to solo only using one or two strings. Try using only non-adjacent strings. This forces you to be creative in ways that you never have before, you avoid falling into familair patterns. I hear that why many composers write using whatever isn't their main instrument. They avoid familar patterns and just listen to the notes.

Also since most bass guitarist are very visual players, try playing in the dark. It is forces you to really listen, move around the neck in different ways, and learn more about the neck. I used to do it everynight before going to bed. Sometimes jamming to a CD or times just sitting in and playing. It really make you listen to the music you create.

Liten · #6 08-01-2007, 01:36 PM

After listening to your podcast your answer realy makes sence to me.. lots of thanks.. keep making the casts.. Me and many with me check for updates every day.. and as you take the time to get back to us.. this is probably (as I said in my e-mail to you) the best use of the Internet I can think of..

Thanks again

Steve Amadeo · #7 08-03-2007, 08:40 AM

This week I have been mostly transcribing the bebop tune 'Au Privave' as played by Charlie Parker and for the first time (as I haven't yet even begun to start transcribing properly) I realised that what Janek says here is true. Transcribing improves us in more than one area.

All I've done so far is spent time learning to play the tune but there's enough information and challenge in the tune alone to help improve my playing. There's chromaticism, wide interval leaps, phrasing, rhythm, harmony.

At first it was enough to learn the tune thoroughly on one area of the bass (starting on F at fret 3 on the D string and pretty much using the D and G strings up the neck) but when I decided to try and play it mostly in one position (starting on F on the A string on my little finger) what a technical challege that became! It suddenly exposed such weaknesses in my left hand and encouraged me to work, as Janek has said so often before, on areas that are uncomfortable or unfamiliar.

When starting to work on Charlie Parker's solo, just listening to that one solo alone gives you a few examples of classic bebop vocabulary. There is also a double time lick, one at the end of the first chorus and one at the end of the third chorus, if I'm correct. When you listen to this double time lick you realise IT'S THE SAME THING (just extended and expanded a little the second time). I found that to be a pretty exciting revelation.

I'm sure I'm only scratching the surface with this and am looking forward to what more digging will reveal.

JimmyM · #8 08-03-2007, 09:53 PM

I have a question about chord substitutions. Why are so many jazz musicians hung up on using them? Granted, I may not be the most creative fellow in the world, but it seems to me when a D9 is written, for example, why do jazz musicians look for any other chord to substitute just to keep from having to play that D9? Quite often their subs merely serve to irritate me and make me wonder why they don't just follow the changes.

mlbarlow · #9 08-04-2007, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I have a question about chord substitutions. Why are so many jazz musicians hung up on using them?

For much the same reason as adding the "9" to the D9 chord ... more options are offered therein. Instead of having a D triad to limit you, you've got a flat 7th and a 9th at your disposal.

Now, for subs ... think of it as increasing your speaking vocabulary. Yes, I can say basically what I want to with a relatively small batch of words, but I can really get a the crux of an idea when I've got lots of words to pick from ... some of which may be more appropriate. Take a tritone sub for example (a chord based on the tritone or flat 5th). As the chord goes, itself, you are essentially adding more extensions ... you are building a chord off of the sharp 11, which you might add to a D9 chord anyway. A major triad based off of the sharp 11 give you a flat 7th (already in the chord) and a flat 9, which just sounds cool.

Lastly, these somewhat strange tones add tension ... music loves tension to have the greatest sense of release. Check out some Wagner when you get a chance. If you can get out there and craftfully return to your D9, that D9 will sound all the better.

jzucker · #10 08-04-2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I have a question about chord substitutions. Why are so many jazz musicians hung up on using them? Granted, I may not be the most creative fellow in the world, but it seems to me when a D9 is written, for example, why do jazz musicians look for any other chord to substitute just to keep from having to play that D9? Quite often their subs merely serve to irritate me and make me wonder why they don't just follow the changes.

Jazz musicians don't play a different chord just to be different. When improvising, you are putting different melodic phrases and chords together in ways that move you. Sometimes that involves some spontaneous reharmonization.

Listen to Dan Wall play a standard sometime...

On the other hand, there are some players out there who deliberately try to change chord progressions - And not always for the better.

JimmyM · #11 08-07-2007, 01:46 AM

The way you guys are talking about them, it sounds to me like chord subs are more of a soloing thing as opposed to an ensemble thing, and it's best in small doses. Is that accurate? Is it something that bassists may want to stay away from? I keep picturing the pianist giving me scowls

DocBop · #12 08-07-2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The way you guys are talking about them, it sounds to me like chord subs are more of a soloing thing as opposed to an ensemble thing, and it's best in small doses. Is that accurate? Is it something that bassists may want to stay away from? I keep picturing the pianist giving me scowls

Chord substitutions aren't just for arranging and chordal comping. Soloist used them and imply different chords and harmonies in their lines. I remember Joe Pass talking about when he solos he's thinking chords, substitutions and re-harmonization all the time his lines are a result of that.

jzucker · #13 08-07-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The way you guys are talking about them, it sounds to me like chord subs are more of a soloing thing as opposed to an ensemble thing, and it's best in small doses. Is that accurate? Is it something that bassists may want to stay away from? I keep picturing the pianist giving me scowls

Chord subs aren't a fashion statement. They are part of the music. It's not something you turn off and on with a switch unless you're playing in a wedding band type of environment.

It's either part of your vocabulary or it's not. If it's not, I'd suggest further study and avoiding blanket generalizations.

JimmyM · #14 08-07-2007, 11:50 AM

Soooorrrrrrrrryyyy!

jzucker · #15 08-07-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Soooorrrrrrrrryyyy!

No need to be sorry or insulted. I'm just trying to explain that it's part of the language. Not like selecting which shirt to wear with which pants.

Alun · #16 08-07-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The way you guys are talking about them, it sounds to me like chord subs are more of a soloing thing as opposed to an ensemble thing, and it's best in small doses. Is that accurate? Is it something that bassists may want to stay away from? I keep picturing the pianist giving me scowls

It's one of those things that you get used to knowing when and where to use. I sometimes work with a pianist who seems incapable of playing the written harmony. He plays some beautiful things but there's nothing more horrendous than when he starts doing it on a very slow ballad and the written bass notes no longer fit anything he's doing! A quarter note lasts a loooong time in this situations

At the same time, I play with another pianist regularly and we know each others preferences when it comes to substitutions so can pretty much guess where we're going. Occasionally it almost sounds like we know what we're doing!

When everyone in the band is listening and reacting to the changes, reharmonising can be an incredibly exciting musical tool but I know what you mean about some people just doing it for the sake of it or because they think it's the "cool" thing to do. For it to work, I think you need everyone listening and understanding what's going on.

Answering the soloing v accompanying bit - when your soloing you have a blank canvas and can take it where you want. For accompanying, I personally make that decision based on the rest of the band and the soloist - it they're fairly inexperienced in jazz, I'll probably stick to the chart so as not to confuse anyone or put anyone off. If they're experienced then I may well reharmonise solos and see what happens

Cheers,
Alun

jzucker · #17 08-07-2007, 03:10 PM

very good explanation Alun.

janekbass · #18 08-10-2007, 04:57 PM

when you talk about all these aspects of describing music such as chords subs, extensions, tensions etc... you are, in fact, just describing music.

Any improvising musician doesn't have a concious thought in his or her head about any of what has been talked about so far in this thread. in fact, they hopefully won't have a concious thought at all. It will be all coming from the subconcious, and be pure improvisation rather than a bunch of devices thrown together to make a "solo" because there turn has come around again on the bandstand.

As a soloist the sooner you can get away from analyzing what it is your doing all the time, and just do it..... the more honest and natural your playing will become.

It's not something that is easy to overcome by any means. I don't want to give that impression. It's something that does take a lot of study, analysis, practice, and dedication. But as long as it's in your mind to be heading for that state of letting go when you take a solo, you're heading in the right direction.

From Calgary Airport on a cold rainy 5 hr lay over from London to Los Angeles......

Easy,

Janek

JimmyM · #19 08-11-2007, 01:02 AM

Ouch! Long layovers suck. Oh well, good thing the airports charge $10 a day for internet access

Ya, maybe it's me not internalizing the process of using chord subs that throws me with making it work. I'm still a relative beginner to jazz (I'm a good lounge player but nobody will mistake me for Jaco), and my pop side gets weirded out when the music gets off the beaten path.