hands injuries

substitutemrg · #1 08-24-2009, 02:34 PM

hello there! i am a novice and i have started practicing with chromatic exercises paying attention to my hand position. i understand while plucking i have to keep my wrist as straight as possible, however, no matter the position of th bass, it seems a rather difficult task to perform. the same happens to the left hand: i'm trying my best to hover above the strings but inevitably when i need to stretch on the lower part of the neck where the frets are not that close it seems that i do not succeed. do you have any suggestions? i'm using jon liebman's books and studybass.com. thanks a lot

**iriegnome** · #2 08-24-2009, 03:52 PM

Watch your elbow position. Depending on where your bass sits, your elbow position for your right hand will and should change. Keeping it a little more out from your body will straighten out your wrist. Next time you put your bass on check it out. I found it pretty amazing that I was doing that for a while and did not even know it.

substitutemrg · #3 08-24-2009, 04:49 PM

thanks a lot! that was one of my first thoughts and i am trying to concentrate on the elbows, but i get my shoulders and arms quite stiff as a consequence. i guess i just have to relax

i also think that i should get a strap with more grip: the one i have now is a very cheap one made of nylon so the bass doesn't really hold by itself and if i don't hold it with my left hand i feel it slipping down. what you think?

adri24an · #4 08-24-2009, 05:50 PM

warm before playing!

needmoney · #5 08-25-2009, 12:00 AM

Ideally you want to maintain straight wrists, however this is not always practical given the situation. Some guys like the floating thumb technique where you maintain a straight wrist no matter what string you're on. Others like anchoring which tends to put a bit of bend in your wrist when you're up on the higher strings. There is no set technique for electric bass, so it's entirely up to the player.

The important thing to realise, is that in most cases, the only time you'd ever suffer an injury is if you were playing with unnecessary tension. It's important to stretch, warm-up, and keep relaxed while playing. Watch guys like Janek and Hadrien, they can absolutely carve it with their right hand even though it's often not totally straight, simply because they're warm and relaxed (and have put in the hours of course).

In regards to left hand, same thing, often you won't be able to keep your wrist perfectly straight, say if you were playing octaves in first position constantly, just stay relaxed (don't dig into the neck with your thumb), and you'll do fine.

Archaeobass · #6 08-25-2009, 12:32 AM

There are several posts re: floating thumb or 'movable anchor' techniques in this forum. Its never too late to break bad habits, or too early to start learning good ones.

I've adopted a ramp on my main player and it helps my right hand a lot - I was dealing with recurring tendonitis, and the physical reminder to lighten up my touch and straighten up has helped immeasurable, especially on long gigs. Plus the ramp has helped me adopt and develop right hand techniques that would be otherwise very challenging. I should also note that my main gig is a rocking for piece - ramps aren't just for the jazz clubs...

My biggest concern these days is my LEFT wrist. Accommodating the left wrist is a factor of strap length, body balance and neck weight. I personally like to have the full tonal and dynamic range of the bass available to me (F in first position on the E string sounds different that F in the 6th position of the B string, aye?), but I have definitely had to transpose my fingering from a preferable position to another less physically stressful one, on the occasion that my left wrist has come dangerously close to giving out on long gigs.

janekbass · #7 08-25-2009, 03:36 PM

in my opinion you need to keep the right wrist as straight as possible. This doesn't mean rigidly straight and uncomfortable or silly looking, but it does mean avoiding the wrist being bent at a right angle while you're playing. the closer you get the neck to the vertical position, the straighter your right wrist is going to be. think about lowering your strap a few inches to get the body of the bass lower and allow you to straighten it a little more. I am not a fan of the "floating thumb" technique, and never have been. It is of course a personal preference, but my thoughts have always been with having a strong anchor point with the instrument on the right hand. I think it puts you more in touch with the instrument and gives you a solid basis for time and feel. I know people talk about the muting of the strings with the floating thumb technique, but I couldn't disagree more. You are putting the whole weight of your arm on the right shoulder muscle and not putting any of your weight on the thumb of the right hand on the pickup (or wherever you might anchor it). Yes, you wrist might be a few degrees straighter using that technique, but after a two hour gig you're shoulder is going to be tight and you'll be in some pain. And the biggest mistake I see people making with the thumb anchoring technique is that they leave their thumb on the pick up, and don't transfer it to the strings when they play on the higher strings. Another real drag and hinderance with the floating thumb technique is that the fingers are permanently in the "free stroke" ( to coin a classical guitar technique phrase) position. This means the fingers are bent and you pick a little more from underneath each string. This is a totally valid part of the range of dynamic on the bass, but when you need to dig in, and actually create a decent sound, you need to have that range of "rest Stroke" where you pluck the string and the finger follows through to rest on the next string. I've studied both these technique for many years on classical guitar, and have worked them into my playing on the electric bass, but the floating thumb scene is just a little gimmicky and doesn't make ergonomic sense for tone production and time feel on the instrument. Perhaps a chiropractor would come up with that technique as being best for the human body, but then life just isn't that easy. And why would you want to forgo a section of the range of the instrument for the sake of a technique that people will tell you helps you posture, but in actual fact is just closing down a section of your playing.

The bottom line is, if you warm up your body before you play, practice well, and don't strain your hands, you're going to avoid injury.

Take a look a great players who have shaped the instrument.

Jaco - slight bend in the wrist http://www.lisa-und-georg.de/mediac/...~Pastorius.jpg but arguably one of the greatest sounds in the history of the bass, and certainly the most influential of all time.

Pino - http://www.ashdownmusic.com/news/lar...opalladino.jpg perhaps for me one of the greatest living bassists, and certainly one of my favorites to listen to. bent wrist, big smile, and the biggest gigs on the planet.

Garrison - http://media.photobucket.com/image/m...odera2.jpg?o=4 he kind of tucks the bass under his arm which keeps the wrist pretty straight, although he has his own technique that is far from conventional.

Hadrien Feraud - http://www.bassmagazine.nl/Issues/Re...ien-Feraud.jpg fairly straight wrist, and as we all know the technique is flawless

Tony Grey - http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OL4GDaulw1Q/0.jpg with a combination of an anchored thumb, but using mainly free stroke. But he has the option to jump up into rest stroke and turn on the power when he needs to

Victor Bailey - http://www.basitours.com/files/newsphotos/139.jpg great example of dropping the strap down a little to straighten the right wrist.....

Easy,

Janek

janekbass · #8 08-25-2009, 03:42 PM

and another point with people saying the floating thumb is best for muting.....

what's wrong with the ring and pinkie fingers on the right hand? with your thumb anchored on a low string and your ring and pinkie fingers taking care of two others, what more do you need?!??!?!?!?

and so much muting comes from the left hang anyway...... I really don't get the need to hang your thumb out in front of your hand and lose 50% of your power, sound, time, and technique.....

Easy,

Janek

substitutemrg · #9 08-25-2009, 04:12 PM

thank you very much

jonster · #10 08-27-2009, 10:31 AM

Try experimenting with your strap length. Sometimes wearing your bass a little higher will help. Try to find a way to make your hand positions as natural as possible, going with the way they want to move, bend, etc. Moderation is key. Warm up, proceed carefully and listen to your body!

I hope you're enjoying my books. Don't hesitate to contact me if I can every be of any help.

substitutemrg · #11 08-27-2009, 10:39 AM

well this was completely unexpected!!! i can't believe i got an answer from jon liebman! indeed i'm using your books, though i'm still at the beginning and trying to gain strength and agility for both hands. so, at the moment, just chromatic exercises. i hope i can start with scales and the rest within a week or so. i will change the strap this weekend and try with one with more grip. i also have to do something about the saddles: at the moment there is too much action and that also might be the cause of a too unnatural movement of my hands. will see how i progress. any other books you can suggest? i have the two "funk" ones by the way. thanks a lot again!

jonster · #12 08-27-2009, 10:48 AM

Keep me posted as to your progress. You might also want to hang out with some other bass players who can show you what works/doesn't work for them.

In answer to your question, best thing is to go to my website and click the "Reviews" and "Store" pages. (TB moderators: I'm not soliciting; just answering a question. Thanks!).

substitutemrg · #13 08-27-2009, 10:53 AM

cheers!!!

substitutemrg · #14 08-27-2009, 04:10 PM

by the way do you think that some warm up with those wrist exercisers can help?

winston · #15 08-27-2009, 05:09 PM

What, a TB poll without a "carrots" option? Sacrelige!

I've had various wrist problems over the years and have learned to play with straight wrists out of necessity. As others have mentioned finding the right strap height is essential. I've also found that adding strings tends to add ergonomic issues. If I can't wrap my index/middle finger around so the tips touch at the nut the bass is too big for me. I've found this the hard way, having owned several 6s and a 7--no more.

I mostly play with floating thumb and find it beneficial. I understand Janek's free stroke concern but I don't find it difficult to get my apoyando (rest stroke) on by playing more into the string. Also I don't find Steve Lawson or Todd Johnson's playing to lack dynamics or power in any way, shape or form. And there's nothing to stop you (or me) from changing to anchored thumb for artistique porpoises.

Of course if you're having continuing problems best to seek professional help. I've had less than great results with general MDs who tend to treat the symptoms instead of the cause. I had much better luck with a performing arts MD and a number ofAlexander Technique lessons.

To tell the truth I've gotten better advice regarding posture and ideal anatomical function from dancers, massage therapists, and yoga teachers than from musicians. In any case I find practicing with a mirror very helpful. And it's best to stay loose, relaxed, and breathing easy rather than locking your wrists totally straight.

My best to you in overcoming the pain.

Panurge · #16 09-01-2009, 10:17 AM

In the Bass Guitar Magazine (UK) featuring Janek on the cover, there is an article from an Alexander Technique specialist which covers strap lenght and wrist positions. The guy in the pictures manages to demonstrate how strap lenght is important exceedingly well.
About a year ago I lowered my strap one notch, and although my left hand had a few months of readjustments, my right hand was immediately relieved of any discomfort I had previously been experiencing, like numbness and tension... It's amazing how a little less than an inch changed so much. My LH is quite happy with the setup now, BTW...