Humility

[johncg]

Janek,

Many performers (especially myself) are very narcissistic and egotistical. And to me, pride/ego/etc. seem to really poison the well in terms of being able to humble oneself to an audience, to other musicians, and to music itself.

Those moments when I really glimpse and really feel humbled by my own limitations as a musician, or when I really just want to communicate through the music with the same urgency I need to speak English are the moments I play my best.

But, wait, I'm on stage! It's my job to be the center of attention. And when I'm doing my job well, everyone treats me like I'm really special and amazing and great.

Basically: I need to feel like a regular dude who just really loves music and wants to share it (even though I know I'm not that great at it) to do my best. And being an effective performer means being treated like I'm not a regular dude and that I really am the best. Soo...

Any thoughts?

[DeluxeRed]

Originally Posted by johncg

Janek,
...in terms of being able to humble oneself to an audience, to other musicians, and to music itself.

As an audience member, probably the last thing I want to see, be it a rock show or a symphony performance, is "humble". As a performer, the last thing I want to be is "humble". (And as a writer and purchaser of software, I feel the same way about code--I don't want "humble" in the equation.)

So I guess I don't see where "humble" has a plus side in musicianship or performance (personal human interactions are a different story, of course--I'm not a prick by nature or anything like that, despite how this post reads).

So, with humble out of the way, you can focus on the ego and pride bit and let them help you, not hurt you.

(You almost seem proud of how you are trying to be humble...)

[Sorax]

Originally Posted by DeluxeRed

As an audience member, probably the last thing I want to see, be it a rock show or a symphony performance, is "humble". As a performer, the last thing I want to be is "humble". (And as a writer and purchaser of software, I feel the same way about code--I don't want "humble" in the equation.)

So I guess I don't see where "humble" has a plus side in musicianship or performance (personal human interactions are a different story, of course--I'm not a prick by nature or anything like that, despite how this post reads).

So, with humble out of the way, you can focus on the ego and pride bit and let them help you, not hurt you.

(You almost seem proud of how you are trying to be humble...)

Without humility how can you truly learn? Humility to me means swallowing your pride enough to be self analytical, to allow for other viewpoints than your own. In terms of musical performance, this means sacrificing the ego and the concept of self-glorification enough to serve the music and other musicians, which is endlessly more rewarding (for the musician and the audience) than ego-driven playing (and is also particularly pertinent for bassists, and any improvising musician). And I think this is one of the big differences between good musicians and great musicians. Being humble doesn't mean being self-deprecating or negative.

[DeluxeRed]

I learn through the power, drive, and thirst of intellect, and I don't have to play mind games to get there. I don't have to "swallow [my] pride" to be self-analytical--in fact, I'm proud of my objectivity. I don't think the ego must be sacrificed to perform a purely human endeavor. Music isn't some outside thing you walk up to and worship. Music IS the human experience--so why would you have to change your humanity, including ego, to create it, perform it, or appreciate it? And I understand that many consider the bass a subservient role, but I see that otherwise, that I am the foundation and the whole thing would crumble without me (or continue in a significantly different form). I am not a servant of music; I am attempting to be its master.

But, hey, that's just from where I'm sittin', and I'm big on "whatever works". It sure is fun to discuss, eh?

[Snarf]

Have a good time, all the time.

[Sorax]

Originally Posted by DeluxeRed

I learn through the power, drive, and thirst of intellect, and I don't have to play mind games to get there. I don't have to "swallow [my] pride" to be self-analytical--in fact, I'm proud of my objectivity. I don't think the ego must be sacrificed to perform a purely human endeavor. Music isn't some outside thing you walk up to and worship. Music IS the human experience--so why would you have to change your humanity, including ego, to create it, perform it, or appreciate it? And I understand that many consider the bass a subservient role, but I see that otherwise, that I am the foundation and the whole thing would crumble without me (or continue in a significantly different form). I am not a servant of music; I am attempting to be its master.

But, hey, that's just from where I'm sittin', and I'm big on "whatever works". It sure is fun to discuss, eh?

You're right, it's a good discussion. Obviously there is no intended insinuation in my posts directed at anyone.

In my experience, ego clouds objectivity. I take pride in my playing, because I work hard at becoming a better player, and enjoy nothing more than playing, but have found that what works best for me is to generally be in a state of mind in which I don't listen to the ego. I guess it's about being able to maintain grasp on reality. Am I overthinking? Maybe. I'm definitely not thinking about this (or anything really) when I'm playing with people.

I guess my viewpoint stems from the belief that there is a truer state of being, in which the ego isn't such a large part (if any) of "humanity". Humility as a virtue etc.

I believe there's a strong spiritual element to music. That's what makes it universal. I feel that it's flowing from someplace else, and our experiences, emotions, intellects and a host of other factors colour and change the way it comes out.

All speculation on my part, and I'm definitely not a "spooky" kind of guy...

Also, I don't believe in any way that the bass is a subservient role, but that in every musical situation there is a supportive role to be played by every musician.

[jazzcrime]

to me, if you think you're the best, what incentive is there to get any better?
humility is a virtue in all aspects of life, pride warps your perception and corrupts IMO & IME!
i believe you can be confident and still be humble though, you've just got to be able to accept the fact that you are you, not compare yourself to others, and not let an ego cloud your judgment.

[metalstorm]

The moment you stop being humble, is the moment you stop moving forward in any aspect.

[DeluxeRed]

Originally Posted by metalstorm

The moment you stop being humble, is the moment you stop moving forward in any aspect.

The moment you start being humble is the moment you freeze in your tracks.

Moving forward takes confidence and an ego that says "I can go there. I should go there. The world will be a better place if I move from here to there."

[middlebit]

Seems there is some (understandable) disagreement regarding the meaning of humility.

Unless it's paired with intellectual dishonesty, mental impairment or vanity (three of perhaps many flavours of arrogance), I don't necessarily see ego being a problem.

I have an ego when it comes to my instrument and my playing (I like what I'm playing -or I wouldn't be playing it). However, I'm not conceited enough to think that someone around the corner can't show me how it's done.
On the other hand, I have no ego when it comes to playing music in a group (I do what's best for the overall sound). That doesn't mean I can't make decisions that benefit both aspects. I definitely consider myself humble.

I do know that I'd rather have someone be openly arrogant rather than assume an air of fake humility. I've known one too many fake "saints" (whatever that's supposed to mean) in my time - they really tend to get under my skin. With the arrogant types, at least it's easier to have a laugh about it.

[johncg]

I think you can believe, "The world will be a better place if I go there" and still be very humble. My most genuinely humble moments have lead me to power, confidence, and ability I didn't even know I had.

To me, the question is what am I using them for? If the answer is "myself," I am on a sinking ship. If the answer is something greater than myself, I end up going places I never dreamed possible.

Personal experience has taught me this.

[Sorax]

Originally Posted by DeluxeRed

Moving forward takes confidence and an ego that says "I can go there. I should go there. The world will be a better place if I move from here to there."

To me, that's not ego. That's courage (or balls).

[Michael Case]

I see great players have a sense about them that says "I know what I'm doing and I know I am good at it." They are confident, but not arrogant. That should be the goal, not this humble thing. I think it's a shame when people feel they need to pretend to be humble. It's a load of crap, EVERYBODY in the world is arrogant and narcissistic. My belief is when you don't own that aspect of who you are is when it causes you trouble.

[janekbass]

damn, this one got long before I could get to it. great posts, many different opinions, and all pretty valid I think.

I think that humans are just so different that there could never be one explanation for what works psychologically and what doesn't when it comes to moving forward in music.

I know that I have changed as a human being beyond recognition over the past 10 years, and that is evident in all aspects of my life including the performance part of what I do. There has been one thread of continuity through it all though that has really been a main contributing factor to get me where I am now. Confidence. I've always been (sometimes for better, and sometimes for worse) supremely confident. Even when everyone around me is telling me something can't be done I'm still totally blinkered to the outside world and will forge ahead and do everything in my power to make said thing happen.

In my case it's been music for a large portion of my life now. I think the confidence was the catalyst for making the foundation of my career, and with the small amount of success I have from time to time I think that bolsters the everyday mind set to help me believe I can do whatever it is I set out to do.

Learning how to control your ego is a huge thing to accomplish. At least it was for me. as has been mentioned on this thread there are aspects of ego, arrogance, humbleness etc etc etc in all of us, and it's not one thing or the other that is the deciding factor. I think it's a healthy balance of all the aspects that have been mentioned.

I don't see how being humble can hurt you in any way shape or form as long as it actually is being humble and not being self deprecating. There is almost nothing I can stand less than someone who is self deprecating. "man, I can't play anything like that" "I know I make these mistakes man, thanks for putting up with me" etc etc etc etc....


NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!

1) if you know you make mistakes, work on correcting them and don't waste your time or mine telling me about them.

2) if you are trying to keep up with me or anyone you're treating music as a competition of some sort and that is totally unhealthy for being creative or original.

anyway..... back to being humble.


I think being humble gives you an opportunity to put the music before yourself, and an opportunity to listen rather than speaking too much. You're rarely learning something if your lips are moving. And being humble means that you are doing what you do without worrying what anyone else thinks about it. You're doing something you believe in, that someone else's opinion doesn't have to influence.

My approach to music is the same as my approach to life in general. Be open to what's going on around you and what other people have to say and suggest, but at the same time be confident and strong willed enough to make up your own mind and form your own ideas from the information available.

From a performance aspect I would highly recommend watching footage of the greatest performers of our time. And I mean real performers, not just great players.

I'm talking James Brown, Elvis, Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna..... people who know how to put on a great show, people who can bring an audience to life and have them leaving the show with their mind blown. Just playing great can only do so much, you need to actually put on a performance when you're presenting your music.

I'm putting together ideas for my next tour in Nov for Clothes, Stage plot, live video, backing tracks, programming etc etc to make an actual show. I unfortunately can't hire 140 people to make a michael jackson level performance with dancers and lights and all that, but I'm sure thinking in that league conceptually in the hope that I can do the maximum possible with the four people that are in the band.

I hope that's something to think about. Would appreciate any thoughts people have on any of the above.

Easy,

Janek

[JimmyM]

Interesting thread. I totally agree with Janek. Confidence and humility don't have to be mutually exclusive concepts. You don't want to spit in the face of fans at your shows or alienate people you work with by being impossible, but when you get up onstage, you better know that you're a badass and convey it to everyone out in the audience, or you'll get eaten alive. You don't even have to be a world class player like Janek to go over. I've had to share stages with bassists a lot better than me, but I always carry myself as every bit as deserving to be up there as they are. You can be humble enough not to mistreat people and still act like your **** doesn't stink onstage

[Basseroni]

Originally Posted by Sorax

Without humility how can you truly learn? Humility to me means swallowing your pride enough to be self analytical, to allow for other viewpoints than your own. In terms of musical performance, this means sacrificing the ego and the concept of self-glorification enough to serve the music and other musicians, which is endlessly more rewarding (for the musician and the audience) than ego-driven playing (and is also particularly pertinent for bassists, and any improvising musician). And I think this is one of the big differences between good musicians and great musicians. Being humble doesn't mean being self-deprecating or negative.

+1111111111111

[Basseroni]

Originally Posted by jazzcrime

to me, if you think you're the best, what incentive is there to get any better?
humility is a virtue in all aspects of life, pride warps your perception and corrupts IMO & IME!
i believe you can be confident and still be humble though, you've just got to be able to accept the fact that you are you, not compare yourself to others, and not let an ego cloud your judgment.

Another +111111111111111

[Basseroni]

Janek, I totally agree with everything you said. Especially the self-deprecating comments. Confidence is key and I think most people here agree but some are confusing confidence with ego or have different definitions of each. Basically, it appears that everyone is saying the same thing but are using different pathways to arrive to the same conclusion.