Learning the Jazz Tradition

[Steve Amadeo]

Hi Janek,

Can a modern improviser expect to play in an authentic and authoritative manner if he hasn't studied the older styles of jazz? How does bebop inform the playing of a contemporary electric bass player and composer like yourself?

All the best,

Steve

[janekbass]

that's a wicked question........ I'm running around like a madman getting ready to leave on the road to LA so I'll give it some thought and post up a reply when I get a second..


Easy,

Janek

[Steve Amadeo]

Get ready for my red wine influenced answer to your reply...

You're a bloody legend!

And, I look forward to your reply,

Sincelerely yours,


Steve

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by janekbass

that's a wicked question........ I'm running around like a madman getting ready to leave on the road to LA so I'll give it some thought and post up a reply when I get a second..


Easy,

Janek

You playing in L.A. I'd love to come see you play!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by funkmunky

Hi Janek,

Can a modern improviser expect to play in an authentic and authoritative manner if he hasn't studied the older styles of jazz? How does bebop inform the playing of a contemporary electric bass player and composer like yourself?

All the best,

Steve

That is an interesting question and while Janek is busy I could mention it is something that I've talked about to many Jazz pros in the UK - at workshops and at gigs in Brighton Jazz Club !

So I remember seeing Acoustic Ladyland there and talking to Pete Wareham - leader and Tenor Sax player.(This was before they won all sorts of awards and went a bit more electric)

I think the point is that you need to have an awareness of olders styles - but those of us who grew up in a later era - maybe it is more "authentic" for us to play music based on Jimi Hendrix's tunes (as Acoustic Ladyland did)?

So Pete Wareham and I talked about growing up listening to Led Zeppelin and finding musical worth and interest there - why not incorporate your own history into your compositions and improvisations? Surely it is better to find your own way and develop a style of your own, that takes in everything you like - whether it is Led Zepplein or Olivier Messiaen?

Rather than going away and learning how to be a carbon-copy of Charlie Parker, for example?

Actually I think it is easier to do this in Europe - where Jazz players do have a history of incoporating Art Music,Folk Music - the music of immigrants - whether from Israel or South Africa, Caribbean...etc.

By the time I was born - the bebop age was long gone, but there was a huge amount of other music to enjoy - bebop can be a study and the number of CD re-issues makes it more accessible in the last few years, in a way that it wasn't in the 60s - 80s! Obviously there is huge study potential and great musical worth/substance to enjoy.

But ultimately if you're talking about being "authentic" - then surely you have to be true to your own musical heritage and not an academic study of something that had died before you were born?

[janekbass]

docbop,

I'll be in LA playing at the baked potato with Airto and Walter Smith III. the gig's on the 31st of this month, all details are posted on my myspace page.


now to the original question of this thread.....

first of all, how do you define authentic in the modern idiom?

I'm not sure there's a way of doing that, as personal taste and opinion are the reason people come to your concerts. Not because they are coming to see someone regurgitate diz and bird. And those audience members that do come to concerts to hear that (of which there are more than you think) are totally closed minded, and wouldn't understand modern concepts of improvisation if they were spoon fed the music.

That being said, I don't think there's any excuse for musicians who didn't spend the time studying the history of the artform if improvised music is what they want to dedicate their lives to. Learning about what came before you to the point where you can play exactly in that style just strengthens your ability to move forward and become an individual.

It's one of the things that is very lacking in the European education system when it comes to jazz. It's great that people are influenced by zeplin, hendrix, beatles, etc etc... but who isn't? those are iconic bands that influenced the world no matter what you do for a living. Using that as an excuse not to do their homework in the jazz field is pretty lame. And it's what sets american players above and beyond the rest of the world. It's what makes them that much heavier in their connection with the instrument, with their sound, and with themselves.

Pete Warham is one of the number one guys in London as far as I'm aware, probably the whole of the UK. But what does that mean? ask anyone outside of the UK who he is and they'll give you a pretty blank look and tell you they don't know. Ask someone who Chris Potter, Mark Turner, Seamus Blake, John Ellis, Miguel Zenon, Joshua Redman, Jaleel Shaw, Tim Ries, George Garzone, Joe Lovano is, and the response is likely to be a little more animated, and positive. The only way this is possibile is because the music of these musicians from the states has had a heavier global impact on the improvised music scene than anyone from the UK.

Tim Garland is an exceptional tenor player. And not only that, he's a great arranger, composer, educator etc.... he's even been a member of Chick Corea's group Origin, been signed to Chick's label Stretch Records, and made several appearances around the world with chick outside of the Origin band. And still when you ask people around the world about him you might get 3 out of 10 people that know who he is. With Tim I'm getting more into the scene of living in the UK, because tim is an amazing player, does deserve more recognition, and did check out the history of not only his instrument, but of the artform.

For me, and this is of course only my opinion, there isn't an excuse for not checking out bebop, and post bop, and hard bop, and early jazz like king oliver, louis armstrong, fats waller, art tatum. And big band jazz, artie shaw, benny goodman, buddy rich, ellington, etc... and modern improvisors like Branford, Brecker, Lovano, Leibman, Grossman, Herbie, CHick, Keith Jarrett, Wayne SHorter.

But take Wayne Shorter for instance....

this is a guy who played in Art Blakey's jazz messengerrs with Lee Morgan, Walter Davis Jr. and Jimmy Merrit. You can't get much more bebop than that. But he's just as at home and amazing on any number of Joni Mitchell or Weather Report albums. And look at Roy Haynes. He actually played with Charlie Parker. But the last time I saw him play it was with Pat Metheny, Roy Hargrove and Scott Coley. What I'm trying to illustrate here is the evolution of a player. Wayne and Roy have that in their careers as they were part of a huge movement in jazz. Those of us a little less fortunate not to be a part of the bebop era, and what came after, can do ourselves a huge favor by checking that music out and studying it hard. Giving ourselves a platform to build our own voice from. I've got no time for anyone who says there's nothing valid in checking out music of any kind. I don't care if it's speed metal, country, trad jazz, ska, punk, or classical. Anything you open your ears to and study hard will ultimately help you in your musical education.

To answer the last part of that question about how bebop informed my playing....

It taught me about movement through chord changes. And I studied a crap load of bebop, dozens of solos. Then I started to adapt those lines, altering them, taking them a little more out, and making it my own thing.

It's something I have worked on for the past 10 years, something I work on today, and something I will work on for the rest of my life.

Easy,

Janek

[Steve Amadeo]

Thanks so much Janek, more good things to think about.

Tim Garland came and did a workshop when I was at Birmingham "Conservatoire" and his strength as a musician was incredible. He had that "heavy connection" to the music and his instrument.

All the best,

Steve

[janekbass]

absolutely, Tim is one of the few from the UK that do.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Intrersting points - it is of course the case, that while the UK has a vibrant Jazz scene with many exceptional players/composers - John Taylor,Kenny Wheeler,Stan Sulzmann etc. - very few get any recognition in the US...

(Tim Garland being a notable exception...)

I think the older guys would tell you it was due to union rules about tours and stuff - I'm hazy on the details, but I prefer to think our musicians have a unique character, which we like but doesn't translate well!

I think it's cool that I have a load of Jazz CDs that I love and which nobody on TB has ever heard of!!
British Jazz is an esoteric secret garden that few discover!!

[Sorax]

great answer Janek, and great question! thanks guys.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Intrersting points - it is of course the case, that while the UK has a vibrant Jazz scene with many exceptional players/composers - John Taylor,Kenny Wheeler,Stan Sulzmann etc. - very few get any recognition in the US...

I think a lot of that has to do with the record companies and the U.S. audiences. Here so many of the Jazz players are doing Smooth Jazz not because it is their thing, but record companies see a far bigger market for it than straight ahead Jazz. So musicians have bills to pay like everyone and play and record Smooth Jazz. The Indie labels are putting out some straight jazz but their marketing and distribution is so limited many don't know of the artists.

From what I hear from musicians UK and European's in general understand and appreciate Jazz and arts far more than the average person in US. I blame the schools and constant budget cuts for that. So most in US don't what to listen to anything they have to spend a little time learning about. That's why market for classical and jazz are so small here. You have a few cities with more fans than others like New York, LA, Chicago, and from what I hear Portland OR but few and far between. So I'd say that is why most don't know of your UK players, they don't even know their US player either.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Thought about this thread - on Friday I saw Tim Garland with his big band - 12 -piece - playing all original music - great stuff!

Interesting that he had set up a competition for young Jazz composers to write a piece for the band - they played the two winning pieces - very impressive!

But it relates to this thread in that Tim had asked them to write something that was in the style of "Steely Dan" or captured their spirit ...

Both worked very well as this and as original arrangments for a big band - but obviously not in the mainstream Jazz area..