Session basses and the Low B

[Footie]

Janek,

Love your playing man, you are a monster!

I have a question. I'm mostly a live side man in a few bands. I rarely do session work but when I do I usually take my F bass in. Since we are trying to make the producer happy I noticed that you need a few different tonal flavors to fit whatever the producer has in mind.
This last session I trotted into the studio with my Fodera Monarch and F Bass and ended up playing the track with a P bass that sat in the mix really well.
This got me to thinking, if I'm going to do more sessions what basses do you recommend taking into the studio? What basses do producers seem to like the most? P bass? Jazz bass?

Also how do you combat a muffled sounding low B? Get a tapered string? Any setup hints to getting a really clear B string sound?

Thanks!

Sean

[fretless Bob]

ooh good post!


Dave

[thebassclef]

The engineers at the studios I have played before seem to prefer either an active preamp (DLX Jazz) with flats or a passive bass with a Di box (Sansamp). They say it is easier to mix it in if the don't have to worry about "Grind" from rounds. And the active preamp or DI box gives them a cleaner signal.

[janekbass]

Sean,

wicked post, something I'm pretty passionate about as I spend at least 4 months of the year in the studio. Not only that, I'm normally the producer on the record date too. That means I'm really needing to please myself most of the time, but I do hire other bass players for certain stuff, so I know what I'm listening for overall.

To get to your thing about the basses:

first off, it all depends on what kind of crew you work for. As a producer I have assembled a group of people around me that I know can perform at 8am, 2pm, 4am, sleep, no sleep, heard the music before, walking in cold, drunk, high, sober, divorced..... you name it, they can work under any circumstances. As a producer I'm looking for that first of all. Of course all of these people are great players, but sessions don't always happen with weeks of notice, tons of rehearsing, and much prearation. In fact they normally all happen at the last minute having never heard the music before.

As far as the instrument goes.... a bass player must have a P-bass and a Jazz bass in their bag if they're in a serious session scene. if you're being hired for the first time by someone, a fodera monarch or any kind of high end custom bass will turn a producer off for sure. We're talking about basses that have been around for a very short amount of time (fodera, tobias, ken smith, etc...) compared to a fender bass that's been on 30,000 hit songs. you may well be able to get any sound out of your fodera (as I have learnt to over the last 18 months) but it's the fender that's going to keep you the gig and get you re-hired again down the line.

I rent basses all the time to do sessions when producers call me for a vintage thing. I don't have super-high-end vintage basses hanging on my wall. i have just never had $9,000 to spend on a P-bass. So I'll rent one, or get the studio or producer to rent one for me for the session.

There are so many different opinions for recording the bass. there is no "right way" to do it, and there really isn't a prefered way to do it if you work for enough engineers and producers. so think about the following things when you're going to record:

1. if it's a big date and the producer and engineer are heavy doods you've heard of before, keep your mouth shut unless something is really sounding like sh*t. They know what they're doing, and even if they don't, you're the sideman and not the producer. I've done too many dates where the musicians got too involved and pissed of a producer or engineer and never got called again.

2. If you're asked what you like to hear from your bass, have something to tell the engineer or producer. Go to a music store and try all the pre amps you can. try and get as much time in the studio messing around with stuff when you're not on a big date and figure out what works best with your instruments, style of playing, and sound of your fingers. Get a general idea of what it is you like about your sound, and how you like it to go on a record. This will rarely happen if you are just a sideman and the project is big. The smaller (and I really mean lower budget) a project gets, the less of an idea each person involved generally has, and the questions will fly around. That's how I got into producing in the first place. By being on a sh*t load of badly produced sessions, and being asked lots of questions. It dawned on people around me that I had an idea and a vision for recording and for sound etc.. and I started to get called as a producer as well as a bass player.

3. preparing for ording and being on sessions is no different from playing a live gig. There are so many things about the studio that you need to shed. You need to listen to great records and figure out what is going on. listening to what parts work best in what situations. Looing at where an album was recorded, who engineered it, what year it was recorded in, who the players are and what instruments they play. You can have this whole palet of sounds in your mind going into a session that will leave you not having to ask yourself too many questions on the actual date. take some records pino paladino played on. Musicman and Fender. Nathan East - Yamaha "nathan east model" (but you have to remember some of these guys who endorse a certain product dont' play that **** on all the album dates they do, they play fender basses!!) Lee Sklar plays lakeland I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I know on the road with Billie Cobham he played a fender. You will find that almost everyone who works in the studio will play a fender on at least half the dates they're doing. Producers demand it, and bass players just love playing them.

I have a multi thousand dollar custom made fodera bass that I play at least 6 hrs every day of my life now. I have a session for a multi platinum japanese rock band tomorrow and the fodera will stay home. I'll take my synth bass rig and my p-bass. that's jsut the way it is. at least in NYC and LA which are the two cities I live in and play in the studio in.

"thebassclef" posted about using a passive bass with a sansamp. I'm going to dissagree for me. Maybe that worked for him/her, but if you're serious about recording you won't use cheap gear. and a sansamp, in the grand scheme of things, is cheap gear. One of the best pre's you can use for recording any kind of electric bass is a Neve. Just the pre amps in the neve mixing consoles right in the strip are out of conrtol. Then you have Manley, Avalon (both of which I own and swear by) ISA, Xlogic.... there are tons. i like plugging straight into the ssl with my fodera too, sounds amazing. The more stuff you can cut out of the chain the better. Some of the best stuff I've heard recorded of me playing was just straight into an increible board. Be it an ssl or a vintage neve or something, you can get a great sound on a record like that if you have a great sound with your bass, strings and fingers naturally.

As for the b-string...

I like to have a slightly different headstock with an extended B string in place of the A string peg, and the A sting peg where the B usually is. Gives the string more length and better tension. The quality of your instrument will determin what is possible with the sound. I would never use a tapered core string at the bridge end. You lose so much of the sound that way. A lot of the time a fat B-string is to big for the bridge, but people stuff it in there and wonder why it sounds terrible. Take the time and get the bridge adjusted. Have it filed out or replaced with one that works for the gague you're playing.

also, unless the session requires a very dead sounding p-bass/motwown sound CHANGE YOUR STRINGS!!!!!!! did I mention you should CHANGE YOUR STRINGS!!!!! DON'T BE LAZY ABOUT THAT SH*T!!!!!

damn, sorry, had to get that off my chest. people just dont' change their strings enough. I'm a little extreme in that sense as I change them every three or four days. Or every two sets when I'm the road. That can be every two days if we're playing one show a night, or sometimes every night when we're playing a two set per night club.

I'm not saying you have to be crazy like that, not everyone plays for 6-10 hrs a day like I do. But those people who play at least some every day, you need to change those strings at least once a week. It's going to make the world of difference to your sound and technique. I have a couple of basses that I haven't changed the strings in years, but that's cos I save those for record dates or gigs that require that motown sound. other than that CHANGE YOUR STRINGS!!!!

put them on a day before a session if you can and play at least a couple of hours on them before you do the date. They'll be perfect by the time you hit the record button.

Recording involves a lot of consistency if you want to be hired a lot. And even more so if you want to be hired for you, and what YOU do. Not just as yet another bass player.

Consistency involves showing up on time, playing the hell out of the music, being cool in the studio, being aware of who you are playing with and what kind of music you are playing, being focused no matter what has just happened or what is going on around you and a number of other things that become personal to you as a player.

This is a whole bunch of cr*p to talk about, but I hope there's an answer to your question in there somewhere.

Easy,

Janek

[SmittyG]

Originally Posted by janekbass

but it's the fender that's going to keep you the gig and get you re-hired again down the line.

That is very interesting to know. I'm not really in a position to be a session ace (location, location, location), but I have always been fascinated by the guys, like you, who can do that job so well. And, in all the interviews I have read with session pros, this is the one constant: you will be grooving a Fender bass most of the time. With all the advancements in bass gear, I find that wild.

[Dave Martin]

Nashville's not all that different from NY or LA in studio, but there are a few things that Janek hasn't mentioned yet; first, it's not at all uncommon to see many, many basses brought to a session. I've seen Mike Brignardello with a dozen, Dave Pomeroy bring 15 or 20, and even on low budget custom records and demos, I'll take 4; a couple of P basses (one with round wounds, one with flats), a Jazz, and my Modulus 6 string (for that low B). Admittedly, this is much eye candy as anything else; I find that on at least half the sessions I do, I'll play one bass for the whole session.

It's also common here for the musician to choose the bass to use on a particular song; when we hear the demo, we'll kinda get an idea of what we think is the right tone for the song, and pick it up. Like Janek, I've played hundreds or thousands)of sessions with 'producers' who have no business making production decisions, so asking them what sound they're after is not usually a good idea....

Another thing about sessions here - at least, low budget sessions - we work fast. it's expected to get 5 or 6 songs done in a 3 hour session, or a 10 song project in two sessions. country songs, rock songs - it doesn't matter; you have to play it right, and you have to play if fast. (another reason for Fender basses - they work on danm near everything).

Nashville Number charts are the rule here (surely there's a thread somewhere on this forum on number charts), and essentially, I approach every session with this rule - play it perfectly the second time. The first run through is typically when all the session guys are working out parts, doing some experimenting. The second run through, tape is rolling; if you screwup, you're holding things up. If I do make a mistake (or even if just I'm not happy about the way I played some phrase), I have to remember where it is, so that i can ask the engineer to pinch those measures. Don't wait for someone else to point out your mistakes...

It's pretty common here to bring your whole signal chain as well - there are guys whose session racks have Neve preamps and vintage LA2A's, some who'll carry bass preamps and Tube-Tech compressors, and most will at least carry their own active DI, so that they can go direct to tape (well, computer) without the need for intervention on the engineer's parts.

it's definitely an interesting way to make a living...

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by janekbass

As far as the instrument goes.... a bass player must have a P-bass and a Jazz bass in their bag if they're in a serious session scene.

I'm going to ask this at the risk of sounding superficial, but does it matter where the P-bass or the Jazz are made? Is MIA and MIM and issue in the studio?

Thanks,
Joe

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by janekbass

One of the best pre's you can use for recording any kind of electric bass is a Neve. Just the pre amps in the neve mixing consoles right in the strip are out of conrtol. Then you have Manley, Avalon (both of which I own and swear by) ISA, Xlogic.... there are tons. i like plugging straight into the ssl with my fodera too, sounds amazing. The more stuff you can cut out of the chain the better. Some of the best stuff I've heard recorded of me playing was just straight into an increible board. Be it an ssl or a vintage neve or something, you can get a great sound on a record like that if you have a great sound with your bass, strings and fingers naturally.

I just looked up a price on an Avalon pre. It was around $3k. I'm guessing that the studio would have this kind of gear. Do guys walk into the studio with this kind of gear, or is it usually owned by the studio?

Joe

[thebassclef]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Nashville Number charts are the rule here

Have used this system for a long time to express Ideas to other band mates. This is one of the easiest systems I know of to get a whole song down and still allow some Musical expression.

[janekbass]

Bassist4life:

any good studio will have a good selection of preamps and compressors. I have the avalon and the Manley cos I have my own studio at home, and need to do great sounding demos,reference trax, and music for movies and tv. But you will find that and much more in well euquiped studios. I'm guessing you were looking at the Avalon 737 for 3k. There's a killing pre they do called the U5. I have a pair of them for my live rig, and used to use them for recording all the time. They're way cheaper (about $500 I think) and are the same Class A level pre.

As Dave Martin points out, there are cats who bring a truck load of basses to a session, and says that he brings at least four himself. But in the next sentence goes on to admit that it'll be the fender on at least half the sessions. Smitty: it's not so wilnd when you think about it. When you take into account the history of the instrument, the fact that fender basses are the most recorded basses ever, and the fact that people just don't know about too much else in the relatively short amount of time electric bass has been recorded. The simpler the better as far as I"m concerned. From a playing and a producing standpoint.

One thing I didn't touch on before was the acoustic bass int he studio. There will definitely be some more work on offer if you have a good sound, nice instrument and a concept of how to use the acoustic in the studio. It's a super bitch to record and that is something that I really don't want to get into here, as there are just too many people that get too into it. Mic vs. DI, these strings vs. those. I'm sure there is a perfectly suitable thread on talkbass somewhere for discussing all that. But just be aware that there are commercial music sessions that require acoustic bass from time to time. Get a good bass, get a good sound, and they won't be calling another cat for that one song on the album that needs it.

That's also true for touring as well. Outside of country/bluegrass music etc, that uses acoustic bass on the regular, thanks to Nora Jones and co. the acoustic has been in the modern commercial music scene more often in the past 5 years. So there are "acoustic sets" within a big show, or a couple of acoustic tracks on an album way more than there used to be. At least that is how it's been in NYC and LA. I'm sure in Nashville the acoustic bass has been in demand no matter what.

I like the point that Dave brought up about nailing the songs in no more than two takes. That's how just about every sessions ever is. Unless you're working with an artist that you tour with as well, and they've blocked out weeks at a studio to do a record, it's going to be in and out. Perfect no matter what. It's an incredible discipline that I strive to better at every time I go into the studio. And it's something I admire in the great studio bassists of your era such as Will Lee, Dave Pomeroy, Nathan East, Neil Stubenhaus, Anthony Jackson, Lee Sklar, Marcus Miller.....


Easy,

Janek

[fretless Bob]

wow man you guys have said some great stuff in this thread, one thing that i definetely agree with is changing strings alot, i feel that after 3 or 4 days my strings are gone and i need new ones, i say this to some people and get the worst looks, but its so true and im glad to hear someone like you say it.

i have been thinking about getting a real good studio DI lately and have been thinking of getting an Avalon U5, i can probably stretch to a little bit more if i have to.

so is there anything else apart from a real good DI that is a must to take on a session in your opinion?


Dave

[janekbass]

if you're working in a studio you know you don't need to take anything the session. I hate carrying extra gear to the studio, when the studio is more likely going to have much better gear than what I can carry. Your bass is the most important thing.

I use the U5 live (or at least I used to before I got the deal with Fender). Fender no have a TBP-1 that I use along with their power amp.

Easy,

Janek

[Basshole]

Dude, I can only speak from experience, and I used to use my Tobias 6 (original signature) in the studio to great compliments from engineers for many years.

Recently, I used a Warwick Thumb 5 on a session, and the engineer looked up from the desk and said "Wow, what the hell kind of bass is that??". Now, I tend to hang around the bottom, so clearly the low B was rather happening...everyone on the session gave my Thumb kudos, and when the Tobias came out; same thing.

Don't know why you are having issues with low B. My basses seem to have it covered in spades, to everyone's rather apparent outright glee. The reality may lie in what actually "cuts through" a mix, and what doesn't.

I know that my Tobias has always been "impossible" to "hide" in a mix. The Thumb perhaps is even harder to hide...sometimes, basses with too-scooped a sound tend to dissapear. Try futzing with EQ, and frankly, don't stop trying other basses. See if you can borrow a Warwick for a session. You might just be pleasantly surprised.

Fender should not be "the winner" in a modern bass studio shootout, by any stretch, IMHO. There's too much better stuff out there. Time HAS marched on, it's 2006. Not knocking the Fender, if you want "that sound" for vintage reasons, but there's clearly more impressive, more modern things out there, that should cover your LOW B needs very well.

[fretless Bob]

well i have done a bit of studio work here and there but not enough to really know the ins and outs of how things work.

i have always though that i didnt need much but thought it wouldnt hurt to ask


Dave

[janekbass]

Basshole,

the whole point of me explaining the fender thing was that time hasn't moved on. Not in the sense of recording basses. I'm guessing most of your sessions experience has been with some form of prog rock? gospel? R&B type situation? I'm only guessing so please put me straight. I'm also guessing it hasn't been with any heavy producers with platinum records to their credits. I'm not saying that all of mine have been, or that I'm in anyway better than you at all. I'm just making the point that when you get to a certain level of recording there is a commen thread of what works on almost all types of recording. And that is the Fender P and J basses.

It's a fact, not something that there is too much room for discussion on. What there is room for discussion on I think is what bass might come along so rival the usefulness of the fender. I'm not sure it has come along yet. Almost all bass makers at some point rip off something about the original fender design. And more recently most bass builders rip off Fodera designs. I personally think it has so much to do with the woods used back in the 60's and 70's in the fender basses, and the fact that they have simply been the mainstay of modern music for 45 years at least.

It's not like guitars where you have so many more guitars for so many more sounds. 335, strat, tele, hollow body, humbuckers, single coil. The bass inevitably occupies a very specific frequency in a mix on a song. It don't normally stick out, rarely plays a solo, and almost never delivers a frequency above 1.5k.

The bass is what it is for the purpose of recording pop/commercial music. Fender figured out what that was years ago, and people have been copying it ever since. History speaks for itself, and in my mind, and the minds of almost any serious studio bass player I have ever met, will continue to speak for itself.

I'm not in any way trying to put your basses down. Tobias and Warwick are renowned bass makers, and many great things have come from players that play those basses. What I'm saying is that when you are a sideman/session musician you have to carry a couple of fender basses if you want to work on a regular basis in the studio in Nashville, New York, London or LA. And that is where 98% of all serious sessions are done. Also remember that this is coming from someone who edorses and plays Fodera basses for hours on end every day, all over the world, and on some of my own recordings. It's not about me being some fender nut, it's just a fact of recording as a bass palyer.

I'm sure fender are very happy about the fact that everyone wants to play their basses as well. They brought out that new line of Custom Shop Relic basses using the old wood from the 60's. They're incredible, and slightly cheaper than a vintage bass.

Easy,

Janek

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I'm going to ask this at the risk of sounding superficial, but does it matter where the P-bass or the Jazz are made? Is MIA and MIM and issue in the studio?

Thanks,
Joe

Nope. It only matters that they sound great.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I just looked up a price on an Avalon pre. It was around $3k. I'm guessing that the studio would have this kind of gear. Do guys walk into the studio with this kind of gear, or is it usually owned by the studio?

Joe

Joe, it kinda depends; I personally don't like the 737 and 747 on anything, though the U5 is an amazing piece of gear. Here, it's not at all uncommon for bassists to carry Neve, Telectronics (the original LA-2A, not the UA re-issue), or other high end mic preamps. Some guys are carrying dedicated bass preamps (Seems the last I heard, Glen Worf is still using his SWR Grand Prix), and others only carry a DI. Viktor Kraus is using an A Designs REDDI these days, and a couple of guys (including me) have an Eclair Engineering Evil Twin. The Milennia TD-1 is pretty cool, too - I've playd through that a few times recently.

I no longer carry a compressor in my small rack; it takes extra time to hook up, and honestly, I've spent quite a few years working to play evenly. While there are reasons to carry one in the rack, I'd want to be playing on more sessions that pay for cartage before I re-built a large (8 space or bigger) bass rack....

But the bottom line for me is that I'll take enough gear to get a good sound to the recording medium, but if the engineer wants me to use something else, I will.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by janekbass

Bassist4life:

As Dave Martin points out, there are cats who bring a truck load of basses to a session, and says that he brings at least four himself. But in the next sentence goes on to admit that it'll be the fender on at least half the sessions.

Sadly, I end up using the Modulus a LOT of the time. it's not so much for the tone as it is for the low notes. if the song calls for low C's or D's, I just grab the Modulus. for an Eb or higher, I'll jsut re-tune the bass. This morning, I recorded bass and drum tracks for 10 songs; only used the Modulus.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Basshole

Not knocking the Fender, if you want "that sound" for vintage reasons, but there's clearly more impressive, more modern things out there, that should cover your LOW B needs very well.

I'll agree with that (kinda); I'm happy with the low B on my Modulus; there's not a big tonal change between the E and the B. On the other hand, a P bass doesn't have to sound 'vintage'...

[Basshole]

Originally Posted by janekbass

Basshole,

the whole point of me explaining the fender thing was that time hasn't moved on. Not in the sense of recording basses. I'm guessing most of your sessions experience has been with some form of prog rock? gospel? R&B type situation? I'm only guessing so please put me straight.

Jazz, Funk Samba, and Rock.

Originally Posted by janekbass

I'm also guessing it hasn't been with any heavy producers with platinum records to their credits.

Actually, I've played with SERIOUS heavies, and played professionally all over the planet. I'm not going to go into detail. For rather personal reasons, I don't publicly divulge my identity on forums.

Originally Posted by janekbass

I'm not saying that all of mine have been, or that I'm in anyway better than you at all. I'm just making the point that when you get to a certain level of recording there is a commen thread of what works on almost all types of recording. And that is the Fender P and J basses.

I frankly don't subscribe to any particular "tone". I own an array of basses, and play the bass most appropriate to the particular song I'm recording. For some songs, that's my MVP fretless, for others, that's my Beatle Bass with flats.

Originally Posted by janekbass

It's a fact, not something that there is too much room for discussion on. What there is room for discussion on I think is what bass might come along so rival the usefulness of the fender. I'm not sure it has come along yet. Almost all bass makers at some point rip off something about the original fender design. And more recently most bass builders rip off Fodera designs. I personally think it has so much to do with the woods used back in the 60's and 70's in the fender basses, and the fact that they have simply been the mainstay of modern music for 45 years at least.

Frankly, perhaps I haven't experienced this much hassle because my primary bass was an original Tobias 6 Signature for so many years as a professional. That bass just had SO MUCH lattitude, that it let me cover 98% of my tone needs without ever reaching for anything else...including a Fender facsimile if needed (although I would argue more than a tad "improved").

Originally Posted by janekbass

It's not like guitars where you have so many more guitars for so many more sounds. 335, strat, tele, hollow body, humbuckers, single coil.

That's funny! We couldn't possibly differ more in opinion here. I have about 7 guitars that together cover just about any studio guitar noise I'd even need to make. I probably have 25 basses, and could still name a half dozen I'd like to have to cover a bit more sonic real estate.

Even my brother, who is a guitarist, and avid collector (with over 40 guitars) agrees that there are more "bass sounds" particular to certain bass instruments than "guitar sounds" are to certain guitars.

Originally Posted by janekbass

The bass inevitably occupies a very specific frequency in a mix on a song. It don't normally stick out, rarely plays a solo, and almost never delivers a frequency above 1.5k.

Again, I'm sorry...maybe I've just been blessed to be able to cover more musical ground in my professional "travels", but I play piccolo, and 12-string, and 7-string sub-contrabass. I wouldn't happily surrender any frequency in the spectrum from 17 Hz to 18K.

Originally Posted by janekbass

The bass is what it is for the purpose of recording pop/commercial music. Fender figured out what that was years ago, and people have been copying it ever since. History speaks for itself, and in my mind, and the minds of almost any serious studio bass player I have ever met, will continue to speak for itself.

You need to get out more (no offense).

Originally Posted by janekbass

I'm not in any way trying to put your basses down. Tobias and Warwick are renowned bass makers, and many great things have come from players that play those basses. What I'm saying is that when you are a sideman/session musician you have to carry a couple of fender basses if you want to work on a regular basis in the studio in Nashville, New York, London or LA. And that is where 98% of all serious sessions are done.

Jingles. More modern music, by specific artists has perhaps more specific tonal requirements, in my experience.

Originally Posted by janekbass

Also remember that this is coming from someone who edorses and plays Fodera basses for hours on end every day, all over the world, and on some of my own recordings. It's not about me being some fender nut, it's just a fact of recording as a bass palyer.

I think you're limiting your horizons, or perhaps you're operating in a limited environment, sonically. I wish you more creative freedom, tonally, from one bassist to another, and I would encourage you not to lock yourself down.

Originally Posted by janekbass

I'm sure fender are very happy about the fact that everyone wants to play their basses as well. They brought out that new line of Custom Shop Relic basses using the old wood from the 60's. They're incredible, and slightly cheaper than a vintage bass.

Easy,

Janek

It's always easier to re-record an old hit, than write a new one.

It all depends on what you consider rewarding, in this biz we call music.

Peace, and good luck.