Session Work - A foot in the door, or a scam?

zac2944 · #1 05-31-2007, 08:14 AM

I met with a producer yesterday about doing session work for some club/dance music that he's producing. I play in a popular disco band and that's how he found me. He said that his material gets released on compilations for club DJs and radio in the UK, and that most of the money he makes come from licensing and downloads from itunes and such. He's trying to produce new material that has more of a disco/70's vibe to it, and that's where I come in.

Everything was going well at our meeting until we started to discuss compensation. The producer says that since he's just getting his new studio up and running he can't payout cash, but can compensate with studio time, education, etc. He also said that once some cash starts coming in from the material that he will be able to pay out cash.

I'd really like to get into doing session work, but this threw up a red flag. I told the producer that my main concerns were that I'm not being taken advantage of, and that I'm not undercutting musicians who do this for a living. If this guy is making money and I'm not getting a cut, I think that's wrong. I have a good day job and don't really need to do this for the cash, but I know other who do. I would never want to undercut those guys.

Ever been in a situation like this? Should I tell this guy to take a hike, or should I look at it as paying my dues and getting in on the ground floor. I've listened to this guys material and I'm confident I can deliver what he's looking for, but I don't have any experience doing session work and I'm not sure how you get established or what to expect. I know the producer has money. He's got a studio full of very expensive gear. Should hold out for cash or just start working and try to make the cash happen?

Lorenzini · #2 05-31-2007, 10:16 AM

It somewhat depends on how in demand you are, and how much you can bring to the table.

I see nothing wrong with a barter system if you are OK with that. But if you don't see the real value in it for yourself I don't know if you should go on with it.

If you will take money and nothing else, get a contract written up and do it that way, so when the time comes for him to pay up your backpay, he does it.

janekbass · #3 05-31-2007, 11:08 AM

I think it depends on a few things.

1. who is the producer? and how much work will come from doing a couple of digitally released disco tracks with him?

2. if he is an established prdocuer worth working for then he has the money to pay you at least scale for a bass session. It's really not that much money in the grand scheme of things.

3. If you're not getting paid up front for a session, the only way you should enter into the situation is with writing credits on the songs you're recording, and a contract. So you are assured a return if anything happens with the songs. With no split, and no contract he could do anything with the stuff after you leave the studio and you wouldn't see a penny.

4. If you have a day gig, you are in a nice position where you don't have to worry about money, and therefor aren't desperate to break into a "scene" that your livelyhood depends on.

Easy,

Janek

zac2944 · #4 05-31-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzini

It somewhat depends on how in demand you are, and how much you can bring to the table.

I see nothing wrong with a barter system if you are OK with that. But if you don't see the real value in it for yourself I don't know if you should go on with it.

If you will take money and nothing else, get a contract written up and do it that way, so when the time comes for him to pay up your backpay, he does it.

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, I don't really have much need for the studio time right now. I really just want to get involved and make a name for myself with the top guys in the studio. I know these guys know people. The mastering portion of the studio (which is a seperate business) is the largest in the Boston area and very well regarded. Here's a link to their site.

Is it normal to work with a producer for a while before getting paid?

janekbass · #5 05-31-2007, 11:11 AM

no it's not normal to work without getting paid. If someone really wants to use you then they will pay what you are worth.

I didn't realize the studio was in Boston. There are a ton of cats up there who think they can scam free studio services out of people cos berklee is so close and everyone wants to be in the scene. I wouldn't stand for it if I were you.

Easy,

Janek

zac2944 · #6 05-31-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janekbass

I think it depends on a few things.

1. who is the producer? and how much work will come from doing a couple of digitally released disco tracks with him?

2. if he is an established prdocuer worth working for then he has the money to pay you at least scale for a bass session. It's really not that much money in the grand scheme of things.

3. If you're not getting paid up front for a session, the only way you should enter into the situation is with writing credits on the songs you're recording, and a contract. So you are assured a return if anything happens with the songs. With no split, and no contract he could do anything with the stuff after you leave the studio and you wouldn't see a penny.

4. If you have a day gig, you are in a nice position where you don't have to worry about money, and therefor aren't desperate to break into a "scene" that your livelyhood depends on.

Easy,

Janek

Thanks for your input Janek.

In response tou you four points:

1. The producer seems to think that there is a lot of potential in the material he is working on, and says the pay out for a moderately successful track is $5k-$10k. I'm not sure what the long term scale of the project is. Here's a link to his website.

2. I know that the money isn't going to be big, and I'm cool with that. I see the whole thing as a stepping stone to get to other projects. That said, I know the guy has money behind him and I don't want to undercut others out there who do this full time.

3. I think this is the path I'd like to persue. Can you provide some detail about the terms of such an agreement? What is reasonable to expect?

4. I am lucky in that regard, but music is my passion and I'm always trying to get to the top of the heap. That's why I'm willing to work for compensation other than cash.

zac2944 · #7 05-31-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janekbass

no it's not normal to work without getting paid. If someone really wants to use you then they will pay what you are worth.

I didn't realize the studio was in Boston. There are a ton of cats up there who think they can scam free studio services out of people cos berklee is so close and everyone wants to be in the scene. I wouldn't stand for it if I were you.

Easy,

Janek

Damn! Figures.

DocBop · #8 05-31-2007, 03:06 PM

Back in my day at least in a situation like that they would ask you to do it on "spec'". In other words some paper saying they get paid you get paid. It was a way many got their foot in the door and a chance to do some recording. But back then not all these little studios or home studio so needed a way to get into a full studio and record.

If me I would only do it if I need some recording experince, or I knew others I wanted to make contact with were going to be on the session. The problem with all of this is what you get paid says to others that what you think your playing is worth.

Snarf · #9 06-01-2007, 10:46 AM

Hey, if you don't want the gig, I can sub for ya!

zac2944 · #10 06-01-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarf

Hey, if you don't want the gig, I can sub for ya!

I'm going to talk some more with the guy about a contract. If he wants players to work for nothing then I'm not going to take it, and neither should you.

Lorenzini · #11 06-02-2007, 12:25 AM

Yeah didn't realize he was that established.
He obviously is trying to get you to play right now, so he can worry about it later, or maybe never pay you. Janek is right.

zac2944 · #12 06-07-2007, 12:57 PM

Thanks for all the advice.

The producer has agreed to work on contract where I'll get a cut of anything that is made from the sale of the music and I'll get writting credits.

Any advice on what sort of a cut would be fair?

bassjamm · #13 06-07-2007, 06:06 PM

That's cool to hear man...when i've done this sort of thing, depending on my input, i got upto 50%, but i guess it very much depends on how much you're putting in, but then again, you'd need to finalise it before you get started i guess!!!

DocBop · #14 06-07-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassjamm

That's cool to hear man...when i've done this sort of thing, depending on my input, i got upto 50%, but i guess it very much depends on how much you're putting in, but then again, you'd need to finalise it before you get started i guess!!!

To me if I am doing them a favor by work on Spec' then if I do get paid I would want scale. Unless you really believe what he's doing is going to be big, then I might talk about points.

Back in the day I was hanging with a friend who was a recording engineer. He said to come down to the studio the tunes were recording were hilarious. Well it was for the soundtrack for the porn movie Deep Throat II. On the break were talking to the composer. He said he did the music (what little there was) for the original Deep Throat on spec'. Doing Deep Throat on spec earned him over a million dollar because of it become a porn classic. Ya never know what might make you money.

zac2944 · #15 06-07-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

To me if I am doing them a favor by work on Spec' then if I do get paid I would want scale. Unless you really believe what he's doing is going to be big, then I might talk about points.

Back in the day I was hanging with a friend who was a recording engineer. He said to come down to the studio the tunes were recording were hilarious. Well it was for the soundtrack for the porn movie Deep Throat II. On the break were talking to the composer. He said he did the music (what little there was) for the original Deep Throat on spec'. Doing Deep Throat on spec earned him over a million dollar because of it become a porn classic. Ya never know what might make you money.

Wow. How great to be on a vintage porn track. One can only dream.

What exactly are points? Sorry if that's a silly question, but I'm new to the whole session/contract thing.

DocBop · #16 06-08-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zac2944

Wow. How great to be on a vintage porn track. One can only dream.

What exactly are points? Sorry if that's a silly question, but I'm new to the whole session/contract thing.

A short hand term for percentage points.

A friend of mine a big name bass player had a singer who wanted him to play for her, but she had a bad reputation of being a royal PIA to work for. She pursued him for quite awhile. Finally he decided to make and offer he figured she would refuse and end it. He asked besides his normal fees for recording and touring for one point on any album he played on. She gave it to him and he made enough money put up playing with her for awhile. Points usually are never given to sidemen.

sleeplessknight · #17 06-09-2007, 02:08 PM

Hey man, saw you lived in Medford. I recently moved there myself, down on Hillsdale st right by the Cafe du Crepes place! Is this the super-sketchy Brit-techno who posted on Craigslist? If so, I'd say "pass". I did some similar session work for a guy in Boston, he wanted a "live bass" funk feel for some dance/techno music he was doing. SUPER stand-up guy, very cool, and he paid me the ASCAP-recommended rate for studio musicians (unfortunately, I don't remember what it was, but a quick Googling should get you there), got my ASCAP number, all very official and on the up-and-up. If this guy's not even offering to pay you a flat rate for X hours of studio time, I'd say tell him to go whistling. There's other studio gigs out there (theater work tends to get me most of mine, curiously enough. Most of my theater gigs are gotten off of craigslist too 8*) that aren't trying to screw the average musician.

--Lee

zac2944 · #18 06-11-2007, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeplessknight

Hey man, saw you lived in Medford. I recently moved there myself, down on Hillsdale st right by the Cafe du Crepes place! Is this the super-sketchy Brit-techno who posted on Craigslist? If so, I'd say "pass". I did some similar session work for a guy in Boston, he wanted a "live bass" funk feel for some dance/techno music he was doing. SUPER stand-up guy, very cool, and he paid me the ASCAP-recommended rate for studio musicians (unfortunately, I don't remember what it was, but a quick Googling should get you there), got my ASCAP number, all very official and on the up-and-up. If this guy's not even offering to pay you a flat rate for X hours of studio time, I'd say tell him to go whistling. There's other studio gigs out there (theater work tends to get me most of mine, curiously enough. Most of my theater gigs are gotten off of craigslist too 8*) that aren't trying to screw the average musician.

--Lee

Very cool. Welcome to the neighborhood. I live right around the corner on Greenleaf (off of Winthrop).

I think this might be the CL guy that you're talking about. He's trying to produce dance music for release in the UK. DO you think it is a bad idea even if I can get writing credits and a percentage of any sales in a written contract?

NKUSigEp · #19 06-11-2007, 08:29 PM

How well do you know this guy? I think that's what it boils down to. I'd say if he's anything less than your best friend, tell him NO!

Reason: if he's using your services, you've gotta take some form of tangible payment. Studio-time is NEVER a good bargaining chip!!!! What will happen is you'll throw down a few tracks, he'll never get around to production and all of a sudden it starts taking up space for his PAYING clients. So your stuff will get "mysteriously" deleted by some electrical storm.

Time goes on, you'll want to get into the studio more and more while he'll want you in there less and less because there will be PAYING clients using the studio. And all of a sudden your studio time turns into 1 hour between 3am and 4am.

zac2944 · #20 06-11-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKUSigEp

How well do you know this guy? I think that's what it boils down to. I'd say if he's anything less than your best friend, tell him NO!

Reason: if he's using your services, you've gotta take some form of tangible payment. Studio-time is NEVER a good bargaining chip!!!! What will happen is you'll throw down a few tracks, he'll never get around to production and all of a sudden it starts taking up space for his PAYING clients. So your stuff will get "mysteriously" deleted by some electrical storm.

Time goes on, you'll want to get into the studio more and more while he'll want you in there less and less because there will be PAYING clients using the studio. And all of a sudden your studio time turns into 1 hour between 3am and 4am.

I agree with you. I could totally see that happening.

I have already told the guy that I'm not interested in the studio time, and we're in negotiating conract/payment. I'm waiting to hear back from him, but I might actually be getting a $$/hr rate.