Techniques to avoid injury to the right wrist

[Aarongermain]

My name is Aaron, I am a professional bass player in San Francisco. For about ten years now, I have noticed potential danger in my right hand electric bass technique. Like a lot of "technical" bass players, I wear the bass high and have my forearm perched on the bass with the wrist bent. This is how I was taught, and I notice countless other players doing it. The problem is that when I play alot, play hard, and practice alot of technical exercises, my wrist hurts dangerously and I lose power, often in the middle of the gig.
The reason I have gotten away with not dealing with this for ten years is because I mostly play upright and depending on my schedule, I often get periodic breaks from my electric. But when I have clusters of electric bass gigs, especially where I solo on every tune, I run into trouble. Ironically, I can play upright, with high action, many hours a-day for days on end and have no trouble. My problem is all centered around the bent wrist electric technique.
I've tried lowering the bass, but this feels awkward and compromises my left hand facility. I have been using thumb technique for the majority of my comping these days, recognizing the benefit (ala Anthony Jackson) of being able to easily palm mute and keep a straight wrist. The problem is the limited speed of this technique. It occurs to me that if I could tackle Dominique DiPiazza's thumb-index technique, I could have the best of both worlds, and avoid injury by having a straight wrist.
However, it feels late in life to start over with a new technique; I've spent countless hours practicing mine, and am very happy with it, facility and feel-wise.
It seems like you use the same technique; and I get the impression that you practice and play long hours. Have you had any problems? Do you have any insight?

Thanx you; I have great respect for your musicianship, by the way.

[varunkapahi]

i know you asked janek but some time i found something i would like to share on the same issue. i think this should help you a little http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc
maybe you already have seen it

[janekbass]

Well I would suggest a few things right away from reading your post.

1. Don't solo on every tune when you play. Aside from people not wanting to really hear a bass solo on every tune, you'll give yourself far more time relaxing as a bass player and less time thinking about soloing. You should of course be equally relaxed across the board no matter what role you're filling as a bass player, but soloing generally puts some added pressure on your technique.

2. Although lowering the bass may seem a little strange at first it's the only way you're going to stop the wrist from bending. I used to have my bass up super high until I noticed the wrist bending being a problem and had to drop the level down a little. It feels terrible at first, but it shouldn't hinder your left hand technique at all. It's just hard work needed to re adjust your playing to that position. Took me about two weeks I think until I didn't notice it.

3. there are a couple of youtube videos that show me having a pretty bent wrist at times, but when I'm shedding for hours every day it's straight, and when I'm on a long gig I'm very conscious of it being in a good position so as not to cause me injury.

The amount of time I spend playing the bass I would have some serious problems if I kept the right wrist bent the whole time. I do find myself holding the neck up a little more often to drop the body down so the right wrist is lower. Especially when I'm grooving for long periods of time on a song.

Playing with the thumb and using palm muting is a great technique to use, but can often be over used as it's an easy way to fake having a pocket. I use it a ton, but I'm aware of the shape of a groove and the arc of comping behind a soloist or singer, and generally won't sit on the palm for the whole song or solo. And Anthony just had wrist surgery from playing that huge bass of his in that style for so long. Something to do with his tendons as far as I remember. The last time we hung out he had a huge wrost brace on, and had cancelled a big tour in europe because of the injury. Dominique is now using thumb and finger picks on the ends of his fingers which I'm no the biggest fan of, although I think he is one of the most incredible musicians I have had the pleasure of meeting and working with. That would be a total change in technique for anyone and I imagine would take quite some time to develop.

I think the key is to drop the right hand down, and really relax throughout everything you do.

Easy,

Janek

[Aarongermain]

Thank you, that is very helpful; I will try those things.
That's an interesting comment about palm muting, "a way to fake a pocket". I had never thought of that way but it makes sense. I play a lot of salsa gigs, and it for that idiom it seems appropriate to use that style all night, because it emulates a baby bass sound. I played a reggae gig last night too, and it seems to seemed like the right sound for the whole gig. For jazz, R&B, and other styles I see your point; to be used with taste. The Anthony Jackson incident is unfortunate and interesting; I didn't realize the potential danger of that technique as well.
It's an interesting point about excessive bass solos as well. The gigs I was referring to are duo and trio gigs; usually at restaurants and corporate parties. Basically background music, and the guitar players and piano players who hire me are expecting me to solo alot, so they don't have to all night. It's an area of music that is more work than art. At your point in your career, I'm sure you don't have to do these very often, or at all, but for alot us, it's a staple in our income. A necessary evil, so to speak. Thats a whole other topic but I do agree it does puts alot of stress on the tendons as well as the mind on top on not being very musical overall.
Also thank you, varunkapahi. The Gary Willis video is interesting, because he does keep a straight wrist and it looks very healthy. I have been trying it, but it is clear that it will take some work. It feels quite different, because the fingertips aren't even (the middle finger much lower than the index) and you need to bend the middle finger a little to compensate. Octaves are particularly hard. I can do River People at the fraction of the speed. I'm hoping with some time it will feel normal though.
Do you have any comments, Janek, on Willis' right hand technique?

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by Aarongermain

Also thank you, varunkapahi. The Gary Willis video is interesting, because he does keep a straight wrist and it looks very healthy. I have been trying it, but it is clear that it will take some work. It feels quite different, because the fingertips aren't even (the middle finger much lower than the index) and you need to bend the middle finger a little to compensate. Octaves are particularly hard. I can do River People at the fraction of the speed. I'm hoping with some time it will feel normal though.

i myself, too, haven't adopted his technique completely. i just took those parts so that i improve my bent wrists.

[giovabass]

Originally Posted by Aarongermain

Also thank you, varunkapahi. The Gary Willis video is interesting, because he does keep a straight wrist and it looks very healthy. I have been trying it, but it is clear that it will take some work. It feels quite different, because the fingertips aren't even (the middle finger much lower than the index) and you need to bend the middle finger a little to compensate. Octaves are particularly hard. I can do River People at the fraction of the speed. I'm hoping with some time it will feel normal though.
Do you have any comments, Janek, on Willis' right hand technique?

Sorry if i'm OT, here are my 0.2 cents if it can help (i would have to say "my 0.2 euros"... ): like varunkapahi I developed only partially the GW technique for the same reasons. For the octaves issue (but also for ascending arpeggios or similar) I found for me to be more natural playing with Thumb-Index-Middle - the same way i would play a chord on the bass - instead of GW's R-M-I; in particular now i play octaves or stuff like River People adding the ring finger too, so it's 4 fingers: T-I for the lower octave and R-I for the higher ones. For octaves it really helps not only for speed but expecially for fatigue, after some time i can play it over and over with a fraction of the fatigue of regular technique.

Of course congrats for Janek for being such a great musician and a kind person sharing his experience... hoping to see you soon live in Europe as soon as i can!

[buddyro57]

This is an important issue that needs to be discussed more and more. The irony that I am referring to is the disproportionate amount of time we bassists spend carefully learning left hand technique, and hardly addressing right hand form until we start getting wrist problems. As a 50-year old bassist and teacher, I have for the last few years experienced most of the problems that have been mentioned. One thing I do (and I know that this is not for everyone) is to sit while playing; I use a high stool and have adopted what looks like a modification of a classical guitar posture. The bass rests on my left knee, left foot on a higher rung, right foot on the floor. The bass (TRB 6) is angled slightly upward, maybe 20 degrees, toward my left shoulder. My right hand is as close to level as is possible. I do assume the more-conventional sharp angle when I solo, but for 80% of the time, I am in a much more relaxed posture. I do acknowledge though, that sitting is not going to work for all, I mean it is a kind of old guy thing.
I can tell you though that if you are starting to notice problems, you’d better start addressing them, because they wont get anything but worse with time and use.
JS

Originally Posted by janekbass

Playing with the thumb and using palm muting is a great technique to use, but can often be over used as it's an easy way to fake having a pocket.

Could you clarify this statement please, Janek? I'm not sure what you mean by "fake having a pocket."

Thanks! Your knowledge and experience are greatly appreciated.

[janekbass]

sorry guys, been out of the loop for a minute this week, just starting a new tour so it's been totally hectic.

First of all, I got an email from Anthony Jackson berating me for having used his name with misinformation..... so to clear that up: and I quote "....due entirely to improper use of a computer keyboard, over a period of 7 or 8 months......"

someone asked me about Gary Willis's right hand technique. I think it's amazing what he does with that. He's so relaxed, plays with very little effort and has one of the most beautiful sounds of any bass player I've ever heard. And his groove, time, dynamic range etc are not compromised AT ALL! which is spectacular. Not only that, but Gary's musicality is just incredible. It's just music, so far beyond any technique there is out there.

And as to my comment about faking a pocket with the palm muting....

Being able to really groove and have range playing finger style is quite an art. Making sure strings aren't ringing on that shouldn't be, being able to strike each string at 200 different velocities to produce completely different sounds, having the ability to play close to the bridge, close to the finger board etc etc are all really important in having a large dynamic range. When you're palm muting it's like having a gate on your sound. Of course the whole concept of muting is to do just that, but if you rely totally on the palm mute for your groove you're going to miss out on all this other amazing stuff that's possible when you combine all the things I just mentioned above. My main point was not to over use it.

Easy,

Janek

[varunkapahi]

now that we are talking about bent wrists and here was a thread about Tal Wilkenfeld , has any one noticed her wrists on both hands with those near 90 bends? actually i have noticed a lot of PRO's the same way. so i was wondering whats this all about? is it really too much of a concern anyway?

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

now that we are talking about bent wrists and here was a thread about Tal Wilkenfeld , has any one noticed her wrists on both hands with those near 90 bends? actually i have noticed a lot of PRO's the same way. so i was wondering whats this all about? is it really too much of a concern anyway?

No ,if you are lucky.
Yes if you're not.

I have adjusted my technique after experiencing problems and am very glad that I did before those problems became really serious.

[varunkapahi]

i was just watching a stu hamm instructional vedio where he mentioned he had wrist problems which took him to a hospital. he also mentioned some exercises/warm ups for the wrists. i think the video is called slap pop and tap for bass or something like it

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by janekbass

sorry guys, been out of the loop for a minute this week, just starting a new tour so it's been totally hectic.

First of all, I got an email from Anthony Jackson berating me for having used his name with misinformation..... so to clear that up: and I quote "....due entirely to improper use of a computer keyboard, over a period of 7 or 8 months......"

That's a lot of typing and I guess I've just been lucky enough to use various computer keyboards in the proper manner for over 20 years writing quite a bit of software all pain free.

[Candybassed]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

That's a lot of typing and I guess I've just been lucky enough to use various computer keyboards in the proper manner for over 20 years writing quite a bit of software all pain free.

I'm almost in total agreement with Buddyro57. About 2yrs ago I decided play seated exclusively. This lasted about a year. I looked closely at Gary Willis' right hand technique because ba ergonomics were and still are of great importance to me. I too adopted the classical guitar technique. I'm constantly looking at how this affects my sound and how it affects other parts of my body. I have found it to be an efficient method of playing. With little or no hand fatigue especially if I stretch my hands, shoulders, back etc.

I still prefer to play seated but I'll stand from time to time. (this is not an old man thing..for me anyway!)

I recently revisited the Gary Willis video, to my surprise I realised I had incorrectly looked at the three fingered technique. I actually play- 1-2-1-3 never alternating between 2nd and 3rd fingers 'cause I figured that they share the same tendon (perhaps not 100% accurate0 but for sure finger one has more independance. This works for me and I don't even use it exclusively but it works really well for quick octaves.

I was intrigued by Janek's statement about fake pocket playing with palm muting. I agree, that there are a myriad of tones that can be achieved levels of attack, bridge/ neck playing and as with most things in life 'everything in moderation'.

Just thought I'd add my 2 penny's worth.

Candybassed

www.myspace.com/big_wm

[Kevin Freeby]

Sometimes there is absolutely nothing that you can do. I just got back from the doctor, where I had to take an EMG test (no not the pickups)and I was told the my problems are based in the cervical vertebrae C5-C8 which affect the hands and the wrists. It is a pinched nerve most likely caused by a herniated disc, we will know more after my upcoming MRI. After about 5 years of constant pain and diminishing chops I am starting to get this thing figured out. This is good and bad news, the good news is that it wasn't because I had bad technique, a bent wrist or anything like that and I am also finally getting to the bottom of my problems. The bad news is that there is nothing that I could have done as far as playing goes to prevent this and it will most likely result in neck surgery. So definitely be conscious of your technique but know that sometimes that it has nothing to do with playing problems. We are different and we all have different problems. So the best thing that I can recommend is to get to the bottom of your particular situation because chances are that it is different from the person next to you.