wacky subdivisions

Snarf · #1 10-12-2007, 12:12 AM

My keys player has a class where the focus is on subdividing during solos, like playing phrases of 5, 6, 7, etc, within a bar of 4. Also there's the whole thing about spreading one 5/4 phrase over 2 bars of 4. I'm just starting to work on phrasing in 5 and 6 and have found interesting applications for it, but too often the guys comping my solo don't want to follow it, since it's a bass solo. It's mad fun to follow a good piano player's solo that way though. What's your take on this technique? Do you use it very often? In my experience it seems very common among sax and piano players, but less so among bassists and guitarists.

janekbass · #2 10-12-2007, 06:58 AM

I really wouldn't ever think of a phrase as being this or that. If you have to think about something being a grouping of 5, 6, 7 etc... then you're probably not focussing on the music so much. It sounds like something that might be cool to work on in your practice routine when you're off the stage. But when it comes to making music and being in the moment, you shouldn't have to think about anything technical at all. You just draw upon your language from all the things you've worked on and play.

Easy,

Janek

Snarf · #3 10-12-2007, 04:36 PM

Well yes, I thought that it would go without saying that that's not something to actively think about when playing. This is more of a training exercise, to open up the brain and the fingers to obscure rhythmic possibilities.

washtub_bass · #4 10-20-2007, 01:22 PM

it's kinda cool sometimes to take a few steps back, sit down and discover what you're doing on paper. It's much like drawing out a map for directions to get from point A to point B, and then not actually using them during the trip.

JimmyM · #5 10-21-2007, 02:41 AM

LOL...I like that!

Janek, while I agree that everything should be internalized to the point of not thinking about it onstage, if you want to incorporate it in your playing, I would think you'd have to work on counting one grouping against another. I would also think that you just happen to naturally be better at it than most to where you really didn't have to work on it too hard. Some people get odd times and odd counting right away and some don't. I don't know, you're the expert, but that's my take on it.

What I would do to teach it to someone is turn on a metronome at 4/4 and try to space out notes that aren't divisible by 2 through the 4/4. And don't play but count "1-2-3-4-5" across a 4/4 beat, for example, or count 7 through a 6/8, or whatever. And listen to a lot of pianist Keith Jarrett. He's a hard listen but he can do polyrhythms with both hands. But Janek is right that if you're going to do it, you have to internalize it and make it sound like you're not really counting but just going off on a tangent. It has a big potential for sounding forced.

janekbass · #6 10-21-2007, 09:21 AM

I was certainly not better at it than most, and it's one of the things I had to work extremely hard on. I still struggle with various aspects of odd time playing such a playing in 5/4.

I'm very fortunate to have worked with a serban drummer by the name of Marko Djordjevic for the past 7 years. His band, Sveti, incorporates serbian folk music with modern day harmony, and jazz improvisation. I think in the entire pad of music there are only two songs in 4/4. There are 13's 11's 9's 7's 5's and even something in 17. This was the way I got more comfortable with playing in these meters, and also working on "whacky subdivisions" as this thread is titled. And it's no easy feat, it took me years to get together, and I'm still working on it. The more organic you can make the process (such as actually playing in that style rather than sitting home with your metronome) the quicker it's going to get inside you and more relaxed you'll be playing it.

Easy,

Janek