6 String Hybrid Piccolo Setup?

[russtolium]

Hi all, I've read through much of the piccolo bass discussion threads but I'm curious about a few things that most others haven't really discussed.

I currently have a 6 string tuned BEADGC with pretty standard gauge strings thinking about shifting up to EADGCF. If I were to describe my playing style, I'd say it would be 50% pick, 30% tapping, and 20% fingerstyle. Genre wise, I'm playing a mixture of heavy, chunky pick riffs and melodic solo bass with some standard and altered tunings, all with bass as the only stringed instrument in the mix.

So my idea in my head is to try using piccolo strings for 3 or 4 of my higher strings, and keep standards on for the rest to preserve a lower end chunk.

I'm aware of the piccolo string's ability to accept a wide range of tuning, but I guess my first question is, why is this? Are piccolo strings just constructed in a way to be more stretchy without losing as much tension than normal strings or are they simply just smaller gauges? Would using a normal bass string of the same gauge give the same effect?

I'm not sure I've seen any piccolo players that played with a pick or with any sort of heavier, distorted tone. Has anyone tried this? Maybe it's just not very good sounding, but I can't find any videos of anyone trying this so it's hard to tell.

Maybe the combination of normal bass and piccolo strings would have too inconsistent a sound to really work well, or the tension of piccolo strings too low for heavier, pick based riffs.

Piccolo strings are typically tuned one octave above, yet I want to preserve the regular range of the bass, so I was thinking piccolo strings on D G C F or just G C F would make playing chords, tapping, and strumming easier. Or maybe that's just a silly idea and I should just buy a string for my high F and call it a day?

Maybe the only way to find out is to buy some and do a test, but if anyone has any wisdom they can share I'd love to hear it.

[ole Jason]

With EADGCF tuning it's really just a long scale guitar at that point. I think it would be strange keeping the bottom two strings a full octave lower than everything else but it might be cool for tapping.

I've heard a few guys use them with heavy distortion and a pick but it honestly just starts sounding exactly like an electric guitar at that point if you're tuning up an octave.

[russtolium]

Hm, well to clarify, all of the strings would stay in the original bass octaves. What I meant to say with the piccolo strings is that, starting with the D string lets say, I would use the low E string of a picollo set for it and drop tune it to D. The D string is one step short of an octave above normal bass low E, right? If you were to use piccolo strings meant for 1-octave-up E starting at D instead of E, wouldn't you be able to keep normal bass tuning that way?
Basically:

-------- High F ( Piccolo G string )
-------- C ( Piccolo D string )
-------- G ( Piccolo A string )
-------- D ( Piccolo E string )
-------- A ( Normal A string )
-------- Low E ( Normal E string )

I may be missing something important but as far as I can tell that seems to make sense...

[bassbrad]

Certainly it will work but will be like learning a whole new instrument. You might want to check out the Charlie Hunter or some Stick players for ideas and inspirations.
Brian Bromberg has done several recordings using heavy distortion on piccolo bass, check out his "Metal" CD not a guitar in sight. Foley also did some interesting stuff on piccolo with Miles.

[ixlramp]

Until recently I had my 6 string bass strung as a full-range instrument and with tensions optimum for all guitar and bass techniques. I was actually tuned in fifths from bass E ... E B F#C#G#D# ... 5 octaves covering the range of 4 string bass and guitar.

Piccolo bass strings are simply bass strings of smaller gauge. Smaller gauges have less mass and are therefore less prone to flop, they don't need as much tension to keep the string vibrating tightly with good tone. I find I can tune them to tensions as low as 20 pounds (half of medium bass tension) and maintain excellent tone. So I guess this is why they have a wider range of tuning.

Piccolo bass with a pick, distortion or any technique sounds amazing due to the superb tone of strings of a longer scale on a wider, more solid neck and on a more massive instrument with active electronics. It's a superior tone to guitar.

After years of experimenting with gauges I found the optimum was a gradual fall in tension from lowest to highest string, this is the opposite of traditional sets.

Tapping a standard low bass E string is easy, the string is fat and comfortable to press and it doesn't need much finger 'velocity'. But as you go to higher strings it becomes increasingly difficult to get volume from a string because a higher finger velocity is needed. The solution is to reduce the tension of the higher strings so they respond more.

Further reasons for a gradual decrease in tension ...

The high strings are more likely to be used for chords, lower tension makes playing chords easier.

Pitch response to string bending decreases with thinner strings, a gradual reduction in tension creates an equal response.

This seems to match your idea of normal gauge low strings with looser high strings to make tapping and chording easier.

I recommend downloading the daddario tension chart pdf so you can design a custom set of single strings which starts with a standard Bass E and has a gradual and steady decrease in tension towards the highest string. You can use these charts to approximate tensions of other brands to within 5%. For the highest 2 strings use the Circle K tension Chart pdf.

The top string will need to be a plain string, some guitar plain strings are long enough to reach the tuner just thread an old bass ball-end onto one. Then you can experiment cheaply. I would recommend trying a .016p for high F to start with, it needs to be loose to be tappable. Otherwise Circle K Strings sell bass plain singles here: circlekstrings single strings.

[ixlramp]

My first recommendation, mostly using the D'Addario XL nickel roundwound chart:

F .016p 20.8 (Circle K chart)
C .025w 26.0 (by calculation)
G .035 25.7
D .050 30.0
A .070 33.7
E .100 36.5 pounds of tension

p = plain, w = wound

I think this would work well, could be a good place to start. Almost all bass sets have tension increasing from low to high strings so they are no good for what you need. I recommend building a set from singles, then afterwards you can perfect your set by feel, by adjusting gauges up or down. It's a very rewarding process.

Try to choose a brand that has very flexible roundwouds (such as D'Addario), this helps the tone at low tensions. D'Addario XL nickels have all these gauges available, despite the .025w not appearing on their chart. These are the strings I use for my piccolo basses.

[lucas vigor]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

Piccolo bass with a pick, distortion or any technique sounds amazing due to the superb tone of strings of a longer scale on a wider, more solid neck and on a more massive instrument with active electronics. It's a superior tone to guitar.
After years of experimenting with gauges I found the optimum was a gradual fall in tension from lowest to highest string, this is the opposite of traditional sets.

#1 thing I would tell those who ask "why not just play a guitar, then" !

[russtolium]

Yes!! This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. Thanks to all, especially ixlramp, this is a gold mine of info. The gradual decrease in tension from low to high makes a lot of sense. I am primarily a guitar player and although I'm not trying to turn my bass into a guitar... I do like to play it like one where I can. Tapping right now on high strings feels sort of like punching the string with one finger rather than.... tapping it.

I've looked over the circlek chart recently but not d'addarios, I'll give that a look and figure out where to go from there. I might experiment with a guitar string laying around, especially to figure out if the bridge saddles or the nut will give me any trouble with smaller gauges. On a guitar I built a while ago I used a pretty standard tusq nut and strung it up with d'addario ultra lights and the b string had a nasty buzzing problem when plucked openly. Maybe the nut was just defective but its made me a bit paranoid of lowering gauge since.

[ixlramp]

Cool.

I've never had any problems using strings much thinner than the nut slots. As long as the nut slot floor is curved the downforce on the string keeps the string centred at the centre of the curve. Same goes for the saddle. I've used a .045 in a .135 slot and a .007p in a .032 slot.

Yeah Circle K would be a good place to get all your strings in one place, they're excellent strings and really flexible too.

Heh! This is typical of me to be the opposite of tradition with my tensions I'm such an anti-traditionalist. I actually think inverted tension is the optimum for bass and guitar. But I'm too ahead of my time, for the moment I'm just happy to see Circle K helping us towards balanced tension

[russtolium]

After doing a few tension tests with my current strings I decided to go with:

F - .017p
C - .025
G - .037
D - .052
A - .072
E - .100

... from Circle K. I'll be going from about 275 lbs of tension to 190... I'll have my hex wrench handy for the inevitable truss rod tweaking. Can't wait to string the new ones up, though I can't help but feel bad for the (still very much new feeling) stock elixers on it now!

The wait begins...

[ixlramp]

Thanks for the update, good choice of gauges

[Arjank]

-------- High F ( Piccolo G string )
-------- C ( Piccolo D string )
-------- G ( Piccolo A string )
-------- D ( Piccolo E string )
-------- A ( Normal A string )
-------- Low E ( Normal E string )

I used that tuning on my 6-string before. The set consisted of the GHS picolo set (0.018, 0.030, 0.040, 0.050) and for the A and E strings I used 0.075 and 0.095.
It worked very well for chords and fingerstyle, but the high F is not nice for popping....
That string (0.018) is just a blank steel wire, which I think gives it the ability to be tuned in a very wide range. It's also nice to tune the 6string to E, A, D, G, D, E, that's a kindergarten for harmonics.

[russtolium]

Got the strings last weekend and have been taking in the changes through the week. Consider me a convert. The tension is infinitely more comfortable and allows me to play much gentler for the same amount of attack and volume I had before. I also get that (for me) desirable kind of fret buzz on the lower strings which is something I had to play much harder to get with the older strings, yet if I want it removed raising my bridge saddles a bit removes it entirely.

Tapping actually feels like TAPPING now instead of finger stabbing and the tone I'm getting is an unquestionable improvement. Big up to CircleK for getting these to me in 6 days from across the country!

[ixlramp]

Excellent, thanks for the update. Good to see fast service from Circle K.

[bbqstud]

OK here goes nothin'. I'm BRAND NEW to bass and just starting to re-learn guitar. I've got a Epiphone viola bass (McCartney) which has regular bass strings. Went to a Bromberg clinic and really dug the Piccolo tuning. Looked on the net and here and went ahead and bought some D'Addario EXL280 round wound xl strings, long scale, .020/.032/.042 /.052. Now I've heard about tuning an octave up but since I'm the new Village Idiot I don't know what that means. so what does it mean and how do I do it. I have a tuner and know that a standard tuning is EADG. Thanks for your help folks.

[bbqstud]

Also like the tension discussion but unfortunately I don't have a clue as to how to accomplish it...thanks again for your patience with a Newbie.

[bbqstud]

Should I presume that there is some sort of tool that measures the tension?

[bassbrad]

Hi BB, the tuning for piccolo on the set you have is lo to hi E A D G just an octave higher (12th fret) than normal bass tuning or the same as a standard tuned guitar.
D;Addario publishes set tension on the string package and there are special force meters for measurement, not something most bass players need, it is a relative guise for set up and adjustment.
While a nut adjustment is advised it is not necessary and yu should be okay to install that set without any problems. .

[bbqstud]

So if I put these new strings on and tune like you said I should have the right tension that the guys described, right? Thanks for your quick response and I only have like one more...million questions...seems like the older I get the more questions I have. Thanks again.

[rhett]

You've nailed my aspirations perfectly, russ - and the info from ixl is clearly top notch guidance. I've been begrudgingly learning some chords on a standard guitar strictly for writing and solo strum only performance purposes, because a standard bass in my hands fulfills neither of those purposes for me.

So now I'm considering a short scale six or a GT7 after pretty much discarding the possibility of investing in a baritone guitar - thoughts on either of these - or other good options in the <$1500 range? Would it seem most useful to go Low B with the seventh string or use it for the highest string? My intuition implies the higher would be more useful on a 34" scale instrument...

thanks in advance!