Answers to lower-tuning string gauge questions

[KingRazor]

The number one question I see in the strings forum is what strings people should use for drop-tuning. I think we should just add a sticky about this.

I'm not too experienced with different strings but there are several people on here that are. I don't know much but I'll provide what info I can:

http://circlekstrings.com/store/Gauges_And_Tension.html

This is Circle K's string tension guide. They make balanced tension sets as well as sets designed for drop-tuning. If you are interested in strings for drop-tuning, definitely check these guys out.

If you want to check out a more "official" string manufacturer, D'Addario has a string tension guide as well: http://www.daddario.com/DAstringtensionguide.Page

[ixlramp]

The Circle K tension chart pdf shows the tension of a particular gauge at particular pitch on a 34" scale. If you want to know the tension for a scale other than 34" here's the method.

Multiply the tension shown in the chart by (your scale / chart scale)squared.

For example if your scale is 35" and you want to know the tension of a .136 tuned to low B ...

Tension = 39.2 x (35 / 34)^2 = 41.5 pounds

The D'Addario tension chart pdf shows the tension of a particular gauge at a particular pitch, for various scales determined by the different string set lengths they manufacture ...

Electric Bass Guitar (Superlong Scale) = 36"
Electric Bass Guitar (Long Scale) = 34"
Electric Bass Guitar (Medium Scale) = 32"
Electric Bass Guitar (Short Scale) = 30"

The method above still applies

[KingRazor]

So much for getting this stickied lol. Thanks for the input, ixlramp.

[Metal Mitch]

That's only 2 string makers that publish their Unit Weight.

Recently there seems to be a lot of folks looking for balanced tension sets. I wonder if the vendors realize they could actually sell into this market by disclosing that information.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Metal Mitch

That's only 2 string makers that publish their Unit Weight.

Recently there seems to be a lot of folks looking for balanced tension sets. I wonder if the vendors realize they could actually sell into this market by disclosing that information.

Indeed. In the mean time I'm more than happy to support Knucklehead at Circle k.

[ixlramp]

I wonder if D'Addario foresaw what would happen when they starting printing the individual string tensions on their sets? Some of us saw the tension imbalance and questioned it.

I'm so glad they did.

They also are selling so called 'Regular light top / medium bottom' (which actually has the top strings slightly heavier!) and 'custom light gauge', which are an improvement but are still 'centre heavy' with the central strings 10 pounds heavier.

[Metal Mitch]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

Indeed. In the mean time I'm more than happy to support Knucklehead at Circle k.

I'd be willing to try them, but I don't like tapered strings. They seem floppy and don't sound the same as non-tapers.

How does tapering affect tension? Do you subtract a couple of inches from the scale length when calculating the tension? How do you avoid the increased fret buzz with tapers?

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Metal Mitch

I'd be willing to try them, but I don't like tapered strings. They seem floppy and don't sound the same as non-tapers.

How does tapering affect tension? In theory maybe it doesn't. But increased fret buzz begs to differ.

My experience with different brands, gauges, etc is pretty limited but I'll tell you, I've had two tapered and one non-tapered B string and I would never have a non-tapered B again.

As to my thoughts on whether a tapered string is more "floppy", I personally haven't noticed. My thought is that if it's constructed well, the fact that it's tapered shouldn't make it seem any more or less floppy. Also, you absolutely have to make sure your B string is at a high enough tension or it will be floppy regardless of taper. That's why I'm going with a .136 B string on my next set, should prove to work much better than my current .125 (good for the most part but it rattles if pushed)

[Metal Mitch]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

My experience with different brands, gauges, etc is pretty limited but I'll tell you, I've had two tapered and one non-tapered B string and I would never have a non-tapered B again.

Ok, we've been through that debate years ago here on TB. You'll find many more players that had problems with wolf tones on tapered B strings and will never touch them again.

Originally Posted by KingRazor

As to my thoughts on whether a tapered string is more "floppy", I personally haven't noticed. My thought is that if it's constructed well, the fact that it's tapered shouldn't make it seem any more or less floppy. Also, you absolutely have to make sure your B string is at a high enough tension or it will be floppy regardless of taper. That's why I'm going with a .136 B string on my next set, should prove to work much better than my current .125 (good for the most part but it rattles if pushed)

Have you ever compared the same string in tapered and non-tapered versions? I have. Maybe it's not an issue of tension, but amplitude. Tapers clearly have increased fret buzz with the same setup. (And by that I mean action height at the 12th fret after adjusting for the taper).

[KingRazor]

I've heard plenty of negatives about untapered strings as well, from players and string makers a like.

Like I said, I haven't had a whole lot of experience with different strings. I'm going to try the Circle Ks and see if I like them. If I can't find a B string I like I'm just going to ditch my 5er and get a 4 string.

[Metal Mitch]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

I've heard plenty of negatives about untapered strings as well, from players and string makers a like.

Like I said, I haven't had a whole lot of experience with different strings. I'm going to try the Circle Ks and see if I like them. If I can't find a B string I like I'm just going to ditch my 5er and get a 4 string.

Haha, people are constantly complaining about their B string. Recently the DR DDT low B (untapered) has a lot of good reviews, and previously the LaBella HRS (tapered) had a lot of good reports.

Based on all the new string tension discussions, I'm starting to see that the low B is my answer to D flat tuning.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Metal Mitch

How does tapering affect tension? Do you subtract a couple of inches from the scale length when calculating the tension?

No

KingRazor, the Circle K tapered strings have an excellent design. Only 1.625 / 1&5/8 inches from string-edge of ball-end to start of taper. For comparison, D'Addarios are 2 inches. See the Circle K specs pdf

The closer a string comes to being full gauge from nut to saddle, the more harmonically it will vibrate. It's essential to have the taper as close as possible to the bridge saddle. However since ball-end to saddle distances vary manufacturers play safe by using a long taper.

Any more than roughly 1 inch of taper in the vibrating length ruins the tone, increasingly as you play up the neck (because the tapered section becomes a larger fraction of the vibrating length).

With Circle K's top-loaded there will be roughly 1/2 inch of tapered section in the vibrating length. Circle K's are also super-flexible, which is the other essential property for good tone, this also allows thicker and therefore tighter strings to be used, reducing flop.

Also the thinner the tapered section, the more inharmonicity, which is why exposed-core is affected by this problem more than a taperwound with 1 layer of wrap wire. I've been using D'Addario Prosteels tapered .145s, they sound amazing even past the octave. They have a tapered section of roughly .085, well over half the full gauge.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

No

KingRazor, the Circle K tapered strings have an excellent design. Only 1.625 / 1&5/8 inches from string-edge of ball-end to start of taper. For comparison, D'Addarios are 2 inches. See the Circle K specs pdf

The closer a string comes to being full gauge from nut to saddle, the more harmonically it will vibrate. It's essential to have the taper as close as possible to the bridge saddle. However since ball-end to saddle distances vary manufacturers play safe by using a long taper.

Any more than roughly 1 inch of taper in the vibrating length ruins the tone, increasingly as you play up the neck (because the tapered section becomes a larger fraction of the vibrating length).

With Circle K's top-loaded there will be roughly 1/2 inch of tapered section in the vibrating length. Circle K's are also super-flexible, which is the other essential property for good tone, this also allows thicker and therefore tighter strings to be used, reducing flop.

Also the thinner the tapered section, the more inharmonicity, which is why exposed-core is affected by this problem more than a taperwound with 1 layer of wrap wire. I've been using D'Addario Prosteels tapered .145s, they sound amazing even past the octave. They have a tapered section of roughly .085, well over half the full gauge.

You don't have to convince me, I'm already ordering a balanced tension 5-string set as soon as I can.

I don't recall either of us making a claim that a tapered string has more tension than a non-tapered. Although Circle K's .136 gauge B string, with 39.2 pounds of tension, is heavier than most B strings.

For comparison, D'Addario's .135 gauge nickel B string has 36.1 pounds of tension and their .135 gauge steel B string only has 34.3 pounds. Tapered or not.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

You don't have to convince me, I'm already ordering a balanced tension 5-string set as soon as I can.

I don't recall either of us making a claim that a tapered string has more tension than a non-tapered. Although Circle K's .136 gauge B string, with 39.2 pounds of tension, is heavier than most B strings.

For comparison, D'Addario's .135 gauge nickel B string has 36.1 pounds of tension and their .135 gauge steel B string only has 34.3 pounds. Tapered or not.

Since tension is a function of mass per unit length, it would follow that the D'A nickel string is more massive than the steel of the same diameter. For the Circle K string, I wouldn't think that .001" would make a significant difference in mass, how does one account for the difference in mass/tension? Depleted uranium alloyed into the string metal?

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Since tension is a function of mass per unit length, it would follow that the D'A nickel string is more massive than the steel of the same diameter. For the Circle K string, I wouldn't think that .001" would make a significant difference in mass, how does one account for the difference in mass/tension? Depleted uranium alloyed into the string metal?

String construction, I guess.

[Metal Mitch]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

The closer a string comes to being full gauge from nut to saddle, the more harmonically it will vibrate. It's essential to have the taper as close as possible to the bridge saddle. However since ball-end to saddle distances vary manufacturers play safe by using a long taper.

Any more than roughly 1 inch of taper in the vibrating length ruins the tone, increasingly as you play up the neck (because the tapered section becomes a larger fraction of the vibrating length).

That's very interesting... assuming a taper of over an inch past the saddle, it would explain why a lot of us were reporting problems with wolf tones using tapered strings.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Since tension is a function of mass per unit length, it would follow that the D'A nickel string is more massive than the steel of the same diameter. For the Circle K string, I wouldn't think that .001" would make a significant difference in mass, how does one account for the difference in mass/tension? Depleted uranium alloyed into the string metal?

Circle K's are not nickel-plated, the wrap wire is a nickel-steel hybrid throughout it's volume (EDIT: actually I'm wrong here, see below). I assume this is what creates a high unit mass.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Metal Mitch

That's very interesting... assuming a taper of over an inch past the saddle, it would explain why a lot of us were reporting problems with wolf tones using tapered strings.

I seem to remember Yves Carbonne, this guy ...



... saying that any more than a centimetre of exposed core in the vibrating length causes significant inharmonicity.

If the tapered section has one layer of large gauge wrap wire, making it over half full gauge, I believe you can get away with about an inch of tapered section.

It would be ideal to have a bridge with adjustable ball-end anchoring points, then any tapered string could be shifted back to get the taper really close to the saddle.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Since tension is a function of mass per unit length, it would follow that the D'A nickel string is more massive than the steel of the same diameter. For the Circle K string, I wouldn't think that .001" would make a significant difference in mass, how does one account for the difference in mass/tension? Depleted uranium alloyed into the string metal?

Just a hint: I'd do a little comparison from thin strings through thick between D'Addario steels and nickel-plated before jumping to an ultimate conclusion. There's also the core-to-wrap ratio to consider. Comparing like dioameter strings between the two "Daddario types, sometimes the steel will be heavier per unit, other times it's the nickel. Also, there are places wheere the unit weight jumps dramatically when going up .005. Core change.

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

Yves Carbonne ...

Know the story on those strings?