Balanced tension strings in the UK/Europe?

[SwamiRob]

Does anyone know where I can get any balanced tension sets outside of the US? I'd love to try some Cricle Ks but the postage is as much as a set of strings, something I'd be willing to pay if I knew I was gonna like the strings themselves and actually had the money to do so (well I'm sure I'll like the strings but there's no way I can buy a load of strings at the moment). Had a bit of a search around and the only option seems to be singles, but they're so expensive I might as well pay the almost 20 quid shipping for some from the states anyway.

[ixlramp]

Hmm i don't know of any ... i'm in the UK and i always buy singles to create balanced sets. A little more expensive but worth it. You can use the http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf and the Circle K tension chart to approximate the tension of other brands and design your own sets. Lets hope Circle K sort out a distributor for Europe.

[Jay2U]

I wish I knew! Unfortunately they only sell sets of non-balanced strings here. Even the bigger music stores don't sell bass strings one off.

[Jay2U]

Maybe a TalkBass poll could convince the settled string makers to start selling balanced sets. I'm pretty sure representatives of the big string producers are lurking this site.

[251]

Circle K has balanced sets & detailed info about each string gauge. Plus they ship anywhere;
Circle K Strings - Circle K Strings

USPS Priority to W York should be inexpensive & quick. 8-)

[Nickthebass]

Originally Posted by 251

Circle K has balanced sets & detailed info about each string gauge. Plus they ship anywhere;
Circle K Strings - Circle K Strings

USPS Priority to W York should be inexpensive & quick. 8-)

I'm guessing that there's some irony in there. I just bought a set. The shipping cost almost as much as the strings and then you've got to pay import duties, VAT and local handling charges. Those costs were about the same as a cheap set of strings.

Doesn't seem like Circle K is that interested in doing business in Europe at the minute.

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by SwamiRob

Does anyone know where I can get any balanced tension sets outside of the US? I'd love to try some Cricle Ks but the postage is as much as a set of strings, something I'd be willing to pay if I knew I was gonna like the strings themselves and actually had the money to do so (well I'm sure I'll like the strings but there's no way I can buy a load of strings at the moment). Had a bit of a search around and the only option seems to be singles, but they're so expensive I might as well pay the almost 20 quid shipping for some from the states anyway.

Outside the US= easy.
I like Newtonestrings.com
They'll do what you need at a quality second to none and are WAY more flexible than I have experienced with any of the big US companies.

[mmbongo]

Ken Smith sells balanced sets, maybe they have a dealer over there? You can also get them from Welcome to Bass Strings Online - Your Custom Bass String Shop... but I'm not sure the shipping would be any cheaper. Wouldn't hurt to ask though.

[SLaPiNFuNK]

Originally Posted by mmbongo

Ken Smith sells balanced sets, maybe they have a dealer over there? You can also get them from Welcome to Bass Strings Online - Your Custom Bass String Shop... but I'm not sure the shipping would be any cheaper. Wouldn't hurt to ask though.

Feel free to drop me a message about shipping internationally.

Depending on quantity it isn't that bad.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Nickthebass

Doesn't seem like Circle K is that interested in doing business in Europe at the minute.

I seem to remember knuckle_head from CKS saying they are indeed keen to set up a distributor for Europe. I believe the CKS shipping includes insurance which raises the cost.

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by cnltb

Outside the US= easy.
I like Newtonestrings.com
They'll do what you need at a quality second to none and are WAY more flexible than I have experienced with any of the big US companies.

Do they sell balanced sets? I was asking them for a balanced set in years past but never saw anything they put on the market.


The Ken Smith "custom balanced" sets seem to have a bit more tension on the middle two strings than they need, just looking at the gauges (could be wrong!), but they do seem better balanced than most commercial offerings

[mmbongo]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

Do they sell balanced sets? I was asking them for a balanced set in years past but never saw anything they put on the market.


The Ken Smith "custom balanced" sets seem to have a bit more tension on the middle two strings than they need, just looking at the gauges (could be wrong!), but they do seem better balanced than most commercial offerings

Yeah the gauges alone don't tell you what the tension is, and not all strings are the same.

For instance, a D'Addaio .105 measures 40lbs of tension while a Circle K .106 measures 43bs. Quite a difference. So, if Ken Smith says they're balanced tension, they're balanced tension

Also remember, a balanced tension set built from singles might not always work out. D'Addario will not package balanced sets because while they may have balanced tension, they do not have balanced sound.

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

Do they sell balanced sets? I was asking them for a balanced set in years past but never saw anything they put on the market.


The Ken Smith "custom balanced" sets seem to have a bit more tension on the middle two strings than they need, just looking at the gauges (could be wrong!), but they do seem better balanced than most commercial offerings

They have so far done whatever I have asked them to.
It started with them being the only ones that would wind custom gauges on round core , with an exposed core-without charging an arm and a leg for it.
Since finding them I have not really looked back. Just experimented with different gauges, which is still going on at the moment.
Currently , I am test driving a set"0.046,0.065,0.080,0.105 and 0.125"-Checking what gauges give me the most balanced feel in terms of tension and tone.
The current one is really not bad at all.

But...what exactly are you referring to when saying "balanced set".
I thought sets of strings were sold because they work well as a set, are balanced, so the extra "balanced" in the name is what I don't quite "get" .

I might have asked that a little earlier on, I know :-)

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by cnltb

But...what exactly are you referring to when saying "balanced set".
I thought sets of strings were sold because they work well as a set, are balanced, so the extra "balanced" in the name is what I don't quite "get" .

I might have asked that a little earlier on, I know :-)

There's a number of considerations one might make, so there's not a universal answer. There's mass to pitch relations between strings, tension on the string at pitch, number of wraps, wraps to core relations, rigidity/stiffness (and the possible choice of annealed steels to reduce stiffness), the choice of various materials for their ferromagnetic properties, etc.

In the example of Circle K (which I enjoy), their balanced sets try to match tensions and address several other of these concerns as well, which all result in better-balanced feel, greater consistency in the harmonic balance across notes/strings, more balanced voltage output from the instrument, and several other benefits. I'm sure it'd be wrong to pin it on simply tension and think this is the most important single aspect -- mmbongo is correct in saying choosing individual strings for tension wouldn't work out ideally on that strength alone. I don't want to romanticize Circle K, but of the premade sets I've tried (especially from larger makers), I've gotten the best results from them.

A few years back, Neil Silverman of Newtone Strings explicitly told me that they currently "only have the Heritahe series for Acoustic guitars with the equal tensions, but [they] are working towards an equivalent set for Electric guitars" and basses, and to watch the site for updates (which I haven't noticed but maybe I've missed something important!).






I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that 15 lbs more tension on the D compared to the E makes for a balanced set, which is similar to what at least some large commercial makers are doing. Many string manufacturers don't (and maybe can't?) make string sets that are well-balanced. Smaller manufacturers often don't make the changes required to amend this, so I don't really want to take them at their word for "balanced tension" when we know what the standard practices are. [edit: To be clear, I don't think that's the situation with Ken Smith, but I'd still like to see numbers.]

[cnltb]

I have not seen a heritage series for bass, but as said in my previous post, I have been and am still experimenting with different gauges which is quite interesting.
I do use round core strings though as said before as I prefer the feel.
One reason , circle K would probably not work for me is that I string through the body something that, according to the website, circle K won't do.
Obviously it is not only tension which is worth considering and I have spoken with the gentlemen at newtonestrings about the aspects worth thinking about in the past.
The one thing I find a dubious aspect is the voltage output, as that depends on how hard the string is plugged just as much as on the string itself(at least as far as I understand it to date), so provided all strings per set are equal in terms of material and construction it seems to me that this is not all too important an aspect.
Just out of interest;
Where does the 15lbs figure from?

[ixlramp]

There's a lot of confusion because 'balanced tension' can mean different things. 'Balanced' could mean equal, or, carefully adjusted to optimum individual values. 'Tension' could be the actual scientific force of tension, or, the feel under the fingers to the player.
Circle K Strings mean equal scientific tension, the D'Addario EXL111 guitar set is also that.
What Ken Smith means i don't know.
Newtone say on the homepage "When creating a customised set for a player, we always try to balance the string tension across the neck" ... ? Newtone Acoustic Heritage series is certainly equal scientific tension because they publish the tension forces "designed to have a reduced and virtually equal tension on each string."

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by cnltb

Where does the 15lbs figure from?

"Standard" sets such as this pack from D'addario. You'll notice that their medium set is even worse, with a 20 lbs discrepancy. Supposing that there was the same percentage of difference between the strings' tension, that's still a 20 lbs discrepancy your hand has to deal with. I'm sure part of the reason the heavier set is chosen by some bassists is because they understand their bottom strings have a lack of tension when compared to the higher.

In the past, D'addario insisted if they better balanced the tension of their strings, everything would sound terrible. This year, they had come out with a "balanced" set of 10s for guitar, the set referenced by ixlramp. I'm pretty confident that D'addario is more concerned about either offering both balanced and their current sets on the market (unnecessary confusion) or the sudden transition (maybe the popular market wouldn't be comfortable with a radical change they don't understand?) rather than actually thinking balanced tension makes bad tone. Bass strings cost more than guitar strings, and they have so many guitar sets I'm sure it's immaterial to them if they offer one more (balanced) set to test the waters.


I don't mean to say Circle K should work for everyone, or that they're objectively the best, but I do enjoy their performance and hold too many gripes with the traditional makers because of these perhaps pragmatic decisions, ones that Circle K never had to deal with from the start. D'addario isn't the only company guilty. But I'm not condemning all other companies either. There's some very real difficulties with making "custom sets" to attempt to balance everything yourself, and I'm sure you're better off than most by going with Newtone if they're helping you do that (seems like a great company!). I was only relaying what I was told and there doesn't seem to be a standard offering from there that changes what was said.

Originally Posted by cnltb

The one thing I find a dubious aspect is the voltage output, as that depends on how hard the string is plugged just as much as on the string itself(at least as far as I understand it to date), so provided all strings per set are equal in terms of material and construction it seems to me that this is not all too important an aspect.

I think this is where it becomes most obvious, rather than obscured. If you have to change what your hand is doing on every string to respond to different mass/stiffness/tension for negotiating between right volume or tonal balance, it's pretty suggestive that the set is not well-balanced. Objectively testing string sets in tightly controlled conditions for tonal consistency and voltage output with magnetic pickups is within the means of large manufacturers, and yet, we've seen much greater innovation so far coming from smaller makers.

[Derek Kiernan]

Also, the construction of the strings isn't that consistent regardless. All those other variables (how many wraps, core mass to wrap mass, etc) can vary wildly across strings. It's additionally important because the core and the wraps are often made of different material, which will not only change the tonal balance acoustically, but change what mass the magnetic field and the pickup's coil are responding to.