The Case of the Twisted B

[Jim Carr]

A twisted B can ruin your tone?

I have an old passive 35" scale MTD Kingston 5-string. Great growl can be had with a modest set of D'Addario EXL170-5SL XL-Nickel Wound strings (.045, .065, .080, .100, .130). The bridge is a problem, but more on that later...

Pic:



New strings and some repair work made this bass just plain great. However, I discovered that after about 5 weeks of regular playing, the strings became very dead. The sustain and great growl were just plain gone.

Time for new strings. I got another set of the same strings as specified above. I installed them very carefully, but discovered a problem when I came to the final string, the B string.

Just getting the old string off was difficult. I have been playing bass since 1963 and have been restringing my electrics and uprights myself ever since I started playing.

This was the first time I changed strings on my (new to me) MTD. The hole where the B string passes through the bridge was so tight, that the uneven part of the string near the "donut end" had to be passed though straight to make it, and even then, it was pretty much binding up all the way.

I got the old one off without snipping it so it could be saved as a spare. The new one went on a bit easier because I got the bridge saddle out of the way so the last bit of the string could pass straight though. Even then it jammed about 3/8" before being fully seated. I eventually worked it though.

Here is the thing: once the string had passed though the bridge, the brass "donut end" that keeps the string anchored was totally wedged so that it could not twist even a few degrees. This proved to be an important detail.

Got the B string neatly wrapped and the bass in tune. I tested the instrument and noticed a problem almost at once. A note played on the B would swell and fade, swell and fade, swell and fade, until fully decayed to silence. Nice effect, except not really what one wants from a B string!

As I loosened the B, I noticed it twisting under my fingers. The string seemed to have 3 or 4 twists in it. After removing the tuner end and reinstalling/tuning it. It is about 95% better. I am wondering if it is still a little twisted. The other strings don't have this problem, and the previous set of identical strings were fine.

Note, the previous set was installed by my Luthier, Erik, or his assistant at Sky Guitars in Denton, TX.

I am wondering if anyone has experience with strings getting twisted?

[aproud1]

Yes. Had that happen before. More common with thru bridge stringing vs. top load. I usually run out the string back to the bridge after wrapping around the tuner.

[jasper383]

That sounds like a classic twisted string--kind of a ringing, in and out sound.

Those bridges are best with tapered strings. I think the MTD brand are a tapered B?

[knuckle_head]

Get thee a reamer and enlarge the pass-through hole. It can be as large as 5/32 to 3/16 and still hold the ball end secure.

[Jim Carr]

Wow!

Thanks to all who responded. I am relieved to learn that this is a known issue. I think I may try a reamer on the B pass through, so I can get full use out of this set of strings. Any further guidance on that score would be helpful, how to avoid burrs, etc. I assume the bridge must come off for that operation.

While I must admit these strings go dead pretty fast, the balance between them seems quite good, so I might be tempted to keep using them.

Just in case I mess it up, has anyone got a good bridge recommendation for the above passive beauty?

[darkstorm]

The gotoh standard 5 string bass bridge would prob be very good inexpensive replacement.

[Jim Carr]

Here is an update on the Case of the Twisted B...

I searched my tool box for a small rat tail file. No luck, it must be with my bicycle tools in the garage, and after all, here is a rusty larger one that sorta fits in to the B string hole in the Bridge, so maybe I'll just...

It took a little effort, but without removing any more that the string and the bridge saddle assembly, I enlarged the "B hole" enough so the string passes through with no binding. It can even rotate as much as about 180 degrees under optimum conditions.

Reinstalling the string was a little nerve wracking, as it is about the 4th or 5th time I've done this, and I worried about stressing the tuner end of the windings. However, all went well, and "TA DA!!!!," the crescendo/decrescendo artifact has totally vanished.

My conclusion is that a bass string, such as my B string can be twisted when installed if the bridge binds the string too tightly. This twist can ruin the sustain and tone of all the notes played on that string. Case closed?

[rhopper]

Seems that I learn something new everyday... Good info to share.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

My conclusion is that a bass string, such as my B string can be twisted when installed if the bridge binds the string too tightly. This twist can ruin the sustain and tone of all the notes played on that string. Case closed?

Whatever works for you, but I have my doubts that rivets normally rotate in most bridges when the strings are under tension. I'm having a little trouble visualizing how the string got twisted in the first place. I guess it could happen if you put wraps around the peg without turning the tuner. I never do that with either bass or guitar.

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

I assume the bridge must come off for that operation.

This would be optimal.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by ggunn

...I have my doubts that rivets normally rotate in most bridges when the strings are under tension. I'm having a little trouble visualizing how the string got twisted in the first place. I guess it could happen if you put wraps around the peg without turning the tuner...

Yes, they do turn in this bridge as the string is tightened, and again yes, the twists were caused by wrapping the string two wraps on the peg before tightening--which works fine if the string can untwist at the bridge end.

[walterw]

keeping the ball-end free to move while re-stringing to prevent twist is SOP. on my fender with the string-through-body bridge, i don't put the bend in the string at the bridge until it's almost all the way wound up, so i can push it out the back a little to let the string un-twist itself before finally tightening it up.

also, in that picture the B saddle is obviously intonated for a tapered B. with a solid B, it should be much further back, well behind the E saddle.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by walterw

keeping the ball-end free to move while re-stringing to prevent twist is SOP. on my fender with the string-through-body bridge, i don't put the bend in the string at the bridge until it's almost all the way wound up, so i can push it out the back a little to let the string un-twist itself before finally tightening it up.

also, in that picture the B saddle is obviously intonated for a tapered B. with a solid B, it should be much further back, well behind the E saddle.

+1
Good advice.
Yes, the pic was before the repairs and current setup.

PS. Currently the B saddle is much further back, with the leading edge aligned with the action height adjustment screws of the E saddle. The bass has a zero fret and Buzz Feiten. Yeah...TMI.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Yes, they do turn in this bridge as the string is tightened, and again yes, the twists were caused by wrapping the string two wraps on the peg before tightening--which works fine if the string can untwist at the bridge end.

The rivets can't spend freely on my Alembic bass or on any of my guitars. I always start with a straight string and use the tuner to make the wraps, though, so I guess it's a moot point for me.

[FunkMetalBass]

Grab a file or drill and make the hole just a bit larger.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by FunkMetalBass

Grab a file or drill and make the hole just a bit larger.

+1

Yeah. I actually used a rat tail file (described above). At first, I thought the bridge was steel, but I am wondering if it is anodized aluminum (see pic in post #1, above.).