Confessions of a flatwound convert pt 2.

[john turner]

continued from this thread...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...96#post9567896

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by One Drop

There are many ways to use rounds besides going for a 'guitar-like' tone, or exaggerating the highs.

As much as I love flats, a nice set of nickel or SS rounds that has a strong low-mid presence gives me all the fundamental and lows I need in a rock band, and when picked gives me a lot of tones I just can't get with flats live.

The simple truth is that amplification and the other instruments and style of music, etc. ad infinitum etc. all have an effect on your band's overall sound, and oversimplifying and generalizing is counterproductive IMO. Best thing is to approach each musical situation separately and decide which bass and string type, brand or model to use.

I agree that there are so many things involved in creating the sound of bass that to say flats are best is oversimplifying.

What is counterproductive is some generalizing that flats are muddy, dull, lifeless and rounds can cop any flatwound tone while flats are a one trick pony.

I'm all for people using rounds and good for them if they are able to cut through the mix. But I find "cutting through the mix" to be a never ending battle for roundwound users, as evidenced by all the threads on the subject.

The "I need an amp/cab/bass/string/effect that can help me cut through the mix" threads that are so prevalent here on TB are a result (IMO) of using roundwounds.

There is a quality to rounds that make a bass sound more like a guitar or piano. Nothing wrong with that and I happen to love that bass tone too. But, think about it...rounds make a bass sound more like a guitar or piano and then we spend the rest of our time trying to stand out among guitars and piano.

I'm not against roundwounds or the users of them. I'm against the decidedly oversimplification and generalization of flatwound strings because it is counterproductive.

[Surly]

I think the rock n roll sound "in our head" is roundwounds, so we tend to use them. Lots of guys wouldn't have their sound if they used flatwounds. However, we don't always have the mix like those guys, so we get lost in it.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Surly

I think the rock n roll sound "in our head" is roundwounds, so we tend to use them. Lots of guys wouldn't have their sound if they used flatwounds. However, we don't always have the mix like those guys, so we get lost in it.

Oh I know exactly what you mean. I spent decades chasing the elusive "tone in my head". It sure wasn't flatwounds I was thinking of, that's for sure.

As far as the "mix" goes...really listen to that roundwound tone you love from your favorite bass players. Notice how it comes and goes depending on what else is also going on at the same time. I absolutely love Entwistle, Squire, Geddy et al's tone. LOVE IT! When I can hear it. When I can't is when they aren't soloing or their parts aren't accentuated over the top of everything else. Just like the rest of us that can't hear our roundwound tone "cut through the mix"...as much as we love that tone.

And make no mistake about it...I LOVE that roundwound tone and there is no other way to get it than with rounds.

But I simply quit chasing my tail. Whew! What a relief! I'm no longer on a Tone Quest because all I'm concerned about is the drummer and I locking in. Let everyone else worry about their tone. I'm no longer trying to cut through the mix because my sound now is unmistakably me and my bass. I don't even have to get into volume wars anymore to hear myself, because no matter how loud the guitar is, I'm play lower notes anyway and my bass sounds nothing like the guitars. I'm no longer looking for tone that isn't there. Well, it is but the guitars have that tone covered.

Let's face it...Entwistle even said as much himself when getting the whole roundwound craze going with Rotosound..."Bass is just another guitar right? Entwistle wanted to (and did obviously) play bass like a guitar and be out front (with his sound). Thus the roundwound craze was born. And every roundwound player since has been trying to hear themselves better. That is no coincidence, because everyone can't be out front. With everyone wanting to be out front, I am really digging it in back again, by the drummer. There is a power back there that the guitarists, keyboardist and singer can't even come close to touching. Let 'em be out front.

I spent 30 years working on that roundwound tone I love so much. I love the tone in other's playing, but I really, really hate it now for myself. I may appear on the surface to have a closed mind about this whole flat/round debate, but honestly my mind could not be more open. I'm just trying to open some other minds to an idea that seems to have been long forgotten.

[Surly]

Yeah I was basically thinking the same thing; Entwistle, or even Green Day. I love the sound too. I agree, it is difficult to find the perfect tone in your bedroom, and then have it work with a full band. It is impossible to compete with the treble of the guitar and the cymbals.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Surly

Yeah I was basically thinking the same thing; Entwistle, or even Green Day. I love the sound too. I agree, it is difficult to find the perfect tone in your bedroom, and then have it work with a full band. It is impossible to compete with the treble of the guitar and the cymbals.

The single biggest contributor to one's choice in a string (between flats or rounds) is where one's head is at as a bass player. THAT is what it all comes down to.

I appreciate all of the wonderful bass players that have come down the line and made bass playing so popular that they have magazines and forums specifically about it. I love the sound of the bass players I grew up with, from McCartney to Squire, Geddy to Entwistle.

But I am no longer a wannabe. I don't give a crap what they sound like anymore. I'm happy sounding like the bass player I envision for myself. I'm more thrilled when my rhythm section is playing so tightly together that it becomes an almost out-of-body experience and the rest of the band is riding on that wave of pure emotion. That place where the drums and bass are so sonically tied together no one (including me) gives a damn about my "tone" because the music transcends the sound? Dig?

Flats just kind of force me to forget about my tone. They force me to forget about me, myself and I. Think about all the reasons why so many hate flats and then think about what they are trying to accomplish playing bass. That is not where I'm at anymore. I certainly don't expect others to feel the same way, nor should they. We're all on our own journeys. I'm just trying to help some see things in a different light.

[TobyBrodel]

I'd play flats exclusively on my fretted basses if not for one caveat: driving distortion.
which I guess is making myself sound like a guitar, but some songs call for it, especially when it's juxtaposed with clean/no guitar.

I don't play my fretless outside jams and personal practice..

great thread, sorry if this has already been brought up in part one.

[Surly]

After experiementing with different strings, I also think that really the only difference in tone I can get from my bass is by using flats or rounds, and it doesn't even really matter which brand of which. There are plenty of modern rock bands like Queens of the Stone Age, where the bassist uses flats. It's a great tone, a different sound.

[Mayers]

But some of us don't play that kind of music.

I think I see the bass differently from many people here. I just see it as the low voice. So I talk like all the other people. I'm not lock in the "rythm section". I can do rythm, I can do cords comping, I can do the lead for a moment or solo like everyone else.

This is why I love jazz and classical music so much, you aren't stuck in one role.

[daniva]

the thing for me is which is the one that better response to the magnetic coil, for me roundwounds comunicate better between your fingers and the electromagnetic world because it move faster, mantain intonation, and resonate better, but the flats gives you the low end tone that its dificult to achieve with the round zingeness, maybe flatwounds responds better in an active electromagnetic circuit...I'm guessing
just see a roundwound string vibrate and compare to a flatwound and you will see the diference, i will love to see the vibration in slow motion

[mongo2]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

I agree that there are so many things involved in creating the sound of bass that to say flats are best is oversimplifying.

But...but...but flats are best.






'Ceptin' when they ain't.

[engedi1]

Originally Posted by daniva

the thing for me is which is the one that better response to the magnetic coil, for me roundwounds comunicate better between your fingers and the electromagnetic world because it move faster, mantain intonation, and resonate better, but the flats gives you the low end tone that its dificult to achieve with the round zingeness, maybe flatwounds responds better in an active electromagnetic circuit...I'm guessing
just see a roundwound string vibrate and compare to a flatwound and you will see the diference, i will love to see the vibration in slow motion

I think that the language barrier is creating mis-communication here. It is nonsense to propose that flats don't activate the magnet as much, because they vibrate differently. Perhaps you mean that rounds seem LOUDER due to increased amplitude of vibration due to the greater flexibility of most round.
Your prior post said that you have used Labella flats, possible the darkest, muddiest of flats.
I on the other hand, only use TI flats, which are very flexiblity, and vibrate like no other round. They have amazing intonation and clarity on the lowest of notes. I find that they resonate extremely loudly even played acoustically. They are LOUD strings.
I disagree with all your statements that rounds vibrate faster, and resonate better. Maybe that was YOUR experience using a limited trial with the labellas. Try a set of TI's and see if you feel the same way.
Also, the response to the magnetic coil has NOTHING to due with flats or rounds. Rounds simply produce more overtones, and less fundamental-that is it! The magnetic response is purely a matter of construction materials. TI flats are extremely responsive for this reason, as are most strings with a lot of nickel (just like the TI Super alloys).

[One Drop]

The thing is, when I play with rounds I start with a set like Rotos or DR Lo-Riders, knock a lot of the high end off anyway, and bump up the low mids a bit, ending up with a tonal spectrum that resembles flats but has a bit more definition than I can get with flats live. In other words, a live tone that more fully resembles a recorded flatwound tone.

There are a ton of rounds users out there that don't go for a guitar-like sound in any way, but just use the brightness of rounds for some definition and crispness when playing live. Recording is an entirely different prospect, and I suspect most bass parts we hear on recordings except for obviously guitar-like tones were achieved with flats.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by One Drop

The thing is, when I play with rounds I start with a set like Rotos or DR Lo-Riders, knock a lot of the high end off anyway, and bump up the low mids a bit, ending up with a tonal spectrum that resembles flats but has a bit more definition than I can get with flats live. In other words, a live tone that more fully resembles a recorded flatwound tone.

There are a ton of rounds users out there that don't go for a guitar-like sound in any way, but just use the brightness of rounds for some definition and crispness when playing live. Recording is an entirely different prospect, and I suspect most bass parts we hear on recordings except for obviously guitar-like tones were achieved with flats.

You know, I find it interesting that people use rounds because they have a bit more definition than one can get with flats live. I feel just the opposite. The only "definition" rounds have an advantage over is with the upper frequencies. Flats have far more definition in the lows and lo-mids. I've spent so much time working this out "live" that there simply is no comparison between the definition of flats and rounds. Flats punch more than rounds do. But rounds have that top end that seems to "cut" more. With flats one does not need it to "cut"...it is just inherently stronger on it's own.

But really if rounds do it and flats don't, then you gotta use what works for you. It makes a huge difference what flats you use, how you EQ and a variety of other factors for sure.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by mongo2

But...but...but flats are best.






'Ceptin' when they ain't.

Very true.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by TobyBrodel

I'd play flats exclusively on my fretted basses if not for one caveat: driving distortion.
which I guess is making myself sound like a guitar, but some songs call for it, especially when it's juxtaposed with clean/no guitar.

I don't play my fretless outside jams and personal practice..

great thread, sorry if this has already been brought up in part one.

I've used distortion, chorus, flanger and a variety of other effects with my Chromes and honestly I've had quite a few bass players talk with me between sets or after a gig and they are flat out shocked I'm not using rounds.

Of course, Chromes are quite a different kind of flat. They aren't your daddy's (or granddad's) flats, that's for sure. All they really lack in comparison to rounds is that zingy bright piano-like tone. They are punchy, bright and have a clarity that one would be hard pressed to think they are actually flats. Then again, anyone can make any flats or rounds sound dull if they want to.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Mayers

But some of us don't play that kind of music.

I think I see the bass differently from many people here. I just see it as the low voice. So I talk like all the other people. I'm not lock in the "rythm section". I can do rythm, I can do cords comping, I can do the lead for a moment or solo like everyone else.

This is why I love jazz and classical music so much, you aren't stuck in one role.

It really makes a huge difference what kind of music you play and where you see yourself as a bass player.

I play mostly classic rock and/or blues. I'm all about rhythm and my switch to flats came about as an intentional change in how I wanted my band to sound. I have two awesome guitar players. I have no desire to be out front along with them with regards to the sound. I have no desire to have people take notice of my playing.

I liken my bass playing to being an offensive lineman in football. I'm doing my job when no one notices. Let the RB's, WR's and the QB get all the attention. If I'm not doing my job, no matter how good the other musicians (stars) are in my band, they are going to sound like ass. Pick any modern era bass player that gets all the attention on TalkBass. That is not where I'm coming from or have any desire to emulate, no matter how good they are at playing fancy even while locking in with the drummer (and I realize a great bass player can do both).

To be honest, I think of my bass as drums that can sustain and change pitch on the fly. I just want to drive the music so the melody can ride on top. I don't ever feel like I'm "stuck" doing only that as it is by choice.

I certainly understand those bass players who want to achieve something more or different with their playing. It's all cool.

[tZer]

I like flats on a passive J
I works really well for some stuff I play
Palm-muted, sponge muted, no mute at all
with fingers or a pick, whatever the call

But I am lucky, so what can I say?
I have 3 other basses on which I can play
two fretted 5'ers, one passive, one hot
Both stung with rounds - I like 'em a lot

Finally a fretless that once featured flats
But didn't quite do it and so that was that
Round wounds it was for that one as well
Four basses, four voices and all of 'em swell!

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by tZer

I like flats on a passive J
I works really well for some stuff I play
Palm-muted, sponge muted, no mute at all
with fingers or a pick, whatever the call

But I am lucky, so what can I say?
I have 3 other basses on which I can play
two fretted 5'ers, one passive, one hot
Both stung with rounds - I like 'em a lot

Finally a fretless that once featured flats
But didn't quite do it and so that was that
Round wounds it was for that one as well
Four basses, four voices and all of 'em swell!

I'm working (slowly) on a custom build of a fretless Precision with a Jazz neck for my flats.

I'll probably string my Washburn up with rounds when that other bass is done.

I've mentioned it numerous times, but in my defense I'll repeat it again. I LOVE the sound of rounds. I'm working on a smaller, quieter gig where volume is not an issue. Very subdued and I'd love to play around in that setting with some rounds. But then again, it's different music and with it being such a quiet setting, the subtleties of rounds will really shine.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

I'm working (slowly) on a custom build of a fretless Precision with a Jazz neck for my flats.

I'll probably string my Washburn up with rounds when that other bass is done.

Sounds like a cool bass - P with J neck and flats... mmm... nice!

Yeah - having multiple basses for multiple uses is VERY luxurious! As we know, no single bass is ideal for all situations. I am thrilled to be able to keep one bass strung with flats because nothing really compares to that flat wound mojo! But being able to transition from passive, flat wound goodness to toothy, round wound aggression is really sweet!

Everyone who plays reggae or Motown or Beatles or other flat-friendly music should definitely have a bass with flats nearby. There's a really special quality that is unique to flats that you really can't imitate with rounds.