Confessions of a flatwound convert pt 2.

[dubbroc]

I tried flats because I was so curious about them. They do get rid of that zip noise but I wasnt able to freely slide while holding a note. My fingers felt stuck. It was worth the try though. It may give someone what they are looking for.

[engedi1]

Originally Posted by dubbroc

I tried flats because I was so curious about them. They do get rid of that zip noise but I wasnt able to freely slide while holding a note. My fingers felt stuck. It was worth the try though. It may give someone what they are looking for.

This should ONLY happen with brand new flats. Did you let them wear in a little? Most people say the exact opposite that you did, that flats allow them to slide much easier since they are smoother. Some flats are a little tacky right out of the package though. TI flats are tacky when new, but after a week or two are as smooth as glass. Sliding is important to my sound and I wouldn't use TI flats if I couldn't slide. Also, since flats are usually at a higher tension, you should try lowering the action to help playability.

[totallyfrozen]

Originally Posted by engedi1

This should ONLY happen with brand new flats. Did you let them wear in a little?...

+1 to this.

[GregDunn]

My chromes were smooth as silk right out of the package; not even broken in, and sliding has never been easier.

[JSK5String]

Originally Posted by GregDunn

My chromes were smooth as silk right out of the package; not even broken in, and sliding has never been easier.

+1 I noticed a huge difference as soon as I put them on. Feels like I'm on a slip n slide...

[engedi1]

It is totally brand specific. Chromes are slick from day one, where as TI's and a few other brands have a coating that is a little sticky until it wears off in a few days. Saying flats are sticky is a weird objection!

[totallyfrozen]

Originally Posted by GregDunn

My chromes were smooth as silk right out of the package; not even broken in, and sliding has never been easier.

Yeah, the D'Addario Chromes and the Fender 9050's (nearly identical strings, IMO) are both smooth right out of the package.

[Sundogue]

I just picked up this Yamaha BB415 from a fellow TB'er. I had been gassing for either a P-Bass or a Jazz. Well, lo and behold if this...



...didn't give me both a P-Bass and a Jazz in the same instrument! I mean like dead on tones of each.

To make a long story short (me? ) I had brand new Sunbeams on it (roundwounds ) and man I was really loving the sound coming out of this Yamaha for a long time playing at home. I've played four gigs with it that way and you know what? ROUNDS SUCK for live gigs. I couldn't hear myself to save my life and I've played these gigs before. I was sounding like some wanking guitar player for cryin' out loud. All that thin, tinny, zingy brightness getting washed out in the drone of the melody makers.

I got Chromes on this baby now and with the true vintage Fender tones and mojo this sweet thing puts out, I am really digging it. The last gig using it with Chromes on, it just pumped out the low end and the drummer and I just grooved all night long. Best part was that the gig wasn't with my normal band. It was a benefit gig with a lot of bands but many needed a bass player to sit in so I played almost all night long along with a GREAT, funky drummer. LOTS of blues and some really old classics we put a new twist on.

I was in heaven!!! Why do I keep going back to rounds? WHY?

It must be the 30 years of habitual zing in my head.

CHROMES!!!

[Surly]

Just got some medium guage Chromes, much better tone than the lighter guage. Next I need to try some heavier Labellas.

[engedi1]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

I just picked up this Yamaha BB415 from a fellow TB'er. I had been gassing for either a P-Bass or a Jazz. Well, lo and behold if this...



...didn't give me both a P-Bass and a Jazz in the same instrument! I mean like dead on tones of each.

To make a long story short (me? ) I had brand new Sunbeams on it (roundwounds ) and man I was really loving the sound coming out of this Yamaha for a long time playing at home. I've played four gigs with it that way and you know what? ROUNDS SUCK for live gigs. I couldn't hear myself to save my life and I've played these gigs before. I was sounding like some wanking guitar player for cryin' out loud. All that thin, tinny, zingy brightness getting washed out in the drone of the melody makers.

I got Chromes on this baby now and with the true vintage Fender tones and mojo this sweet thing puts out, I am really digging it. The last gig using it with Chromes on, it just pumped out the low end and the drummer and I just grooved all night long. Best part was that the gig wasn't with my normal band. It was a benefit gig with a lot of bands but many needed a bass player to sit in so I played almost all night long along with a GREAT, funky drummer. LOTS of blues and some really old classics we put a new twist on.

I was in heaven!!! Why do I keep going back to rounds? WHY?

It must be the 30 years of habitual zing in my head.

CHROMES!!!

Nice Yamaha! Yeah, I keep getting tempted to put Sunbeams back on my Sad but I keep resisting. I had a chance to do a session and I asked the producer if he wanted me to put on rounds and he said to try the flats. They worked great! Of course this was with TI flats which are more mid-rangey and sustain more than most flats, but I was really happy with the tone I heard coming out of playback. If you read Justin Meldal-Johnson's page he talks about flats sitting better in a mix in the recording environment as well as the stage.
This recording was a rock type album, the same producer wants me to record a jazz fusion thing with him, will probably NOT use the TI flats for that...

[kreider204]

Originally Posted by Oraflora

No, not really contradicting, but maybe kind of saying... "I like blondes, and I like brunettes too."

Well then your position clearly has no merit - since red-heads are best."

[engedi1]

If blondes are rounds, and brunettes are flats, what are red heads?

[Nolifer]

Originally Posted by engedi1

If blondes are rounds, and brunettes are flats, what are red heads?

Tapewounds? Half-rounds?

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by engedi1

If blondes are rounds, and brunettes are flats, what are red heads?

I've had blondes that were flat, and brunettes that were round, so I don't think one can compare women to strings. Both are fun to play with though.

[low on toner]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Oh I know exactly what you mean. I spent decades chasing the elusive "tone in my head". It sure wasn't flatwounds I was thinking of, that's for sure.

As far as the "mix" goes...really listen to that roundwound tone you love from your favorite bass players. Notice how it comes and goes depending on what else is also going on at the same time. I absolutely love Entwistle, Squire, Geddy et al's tone. LOVE IT! When I can hear it. When I can't is when they aren't soloing or their parts aren't accentuated over the top of everything else. Just like the rest of us that can't hear our roundwound tone "cut through the mix"...as much as we love that tone.

And make no mistake about it...I LOVE that roundwound tone and there is no other way to get it than with rounds.

But I simply quit chasing my tail. Whew! What a relief! I'm no longer on a Tone Quest because all I'm concerned about is the drummer and I locking in. Let everyone else worry about their tone. I'm no longer trying to cut through the mix because my sound now is unmistakably me and my bass. I don't even have to get into volume wars anymore to hear myself, because no matter how loud the guitar is, I'm play lower notes anyway and my bass sounds nothing like the guitars. I'm no longer looking for tone that isn't there. Well, it is but the guitars have that tone covered.

Let's face it...Entwistle even said as much himself when getting the whole roundwound craze going with Rotosound..."Bass is just another guitar right? Entwistle wanted to (and did obviously) play bass like a guitar and be out front (with his sound). Thus the roundwound craze was born. And every roundwound player since has been trying to hear themselves better. That is no coincidence, because everyone can't be out front. With everyone wanting to be out front, I am really digging it in back again, by the drummer. There is a power back there that the guitarists, keyboardist and singer can't even come close to touching. Let 'em be out front.

I spent 30 years working on that roundwound tone I love so much. I love the tone in other's playing, but I really, really hate it now for myself. I may appear on the surface to have a closed mind about this whole flat/round debate, but honestly my mind could not be more open. I'm just trying to open some other minds to an idea that seems to have been long forgotten.

Let me just get this out of the way.

Dude, you are awesome.

Frankly, due to this thread, I have a whole different oulook on how to create the sound I want.

So I thank you, bowing to the east.

I've been trying to get a powerful bass sound (like my hero John Wetton, but I won't bore you with that aside from saying he and Bruford were described as a flying brick wall backline by Robert Fripp), and been cranking and tweaking and reading every damn thread here to try to get that sound and everything else. I've been increasingly annoyed by this piano-like, harmonic, ringing sound in my rig. It just really takes away from what I want to do, and I couldn't get rid of it! You can somewhat eq it out, but man..... Sadly, the last thing I really thought to change was my freaking strings! I am using nickle-wounds! What was so wrong with that!

Alright, I've had a set of Chromes just sitting there for years in a bag. I'm trying them tonite.

Fingers crossed.

[GregDunn]

Originally Posted by low on toner

Alright, I've had a set of Chromes just sitting there for years in a bag. I'm trying them tonite.

Fingers crossed.

Let us know! I just swapped strings on a second bass this weekend (put flats on one of my short scales) and have been overwhelmed by the improvement. Much like the first time I did this on another bass, I find I can back off my EQ a bit because the sound I get direct out of the bass is much closer to what I wanted.

[engedi1]

Originally Posted by GregDunn

Let us know! I just swapped strings on a second bass this weekend (put flats on one of my short scales) and have been overwhelmed by the improvement. Much like the first time I did this on another bass, I find I can back off my EQ a bit because the sound I get direct out of the bass is much closer to what I wanted.

+1 To this. I find that with rounds one ends up boosting the bass eq on their amp or active bass, and then in loud live situation, you get really boomy. Turn the bass off, and you end up being twangy. I just had a rehearsal with a jazz trio with a LOUD drummer and guitar player and my TI flats were simply amazing. Full, punchy, present, without being boomy or dull. Kudos also go to my newly aquired TC electronics 212 and 112 stack which really deliver this tone. I finally feel like I am sounding what a bass is supposed to sound like, and best of all, if I have to play an upper register lick, it doesn't disappear in the mix.

[JSK5String]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Oh I know exactly what you mean. I spent decades chasing the elusive "tone in my head". It sure wasn't flatwounds I was thinking of, that's for sure.

As far as the "mix" goes...really listen to that roundwound tone you love from your favorite bass players. Notice how it comes and goes depending on what else is also going on at the same time. I absolutely love Entwistle, Squire, Geddy et al's tone. LOVE IT! When I can hear it. When I can't is when they aren't soloing or their parts aren't accentuated over the top of everything else. Just like the rest of us that can't hear our roundwound tone "cut through the mix"...as much as we love that tone.

And make no mistake about it...I LOVE that roundwound tone and there is no other way to get it than with rounds.

But I simply quit chasing my tail. Whew! What a relief! I'm no longer on a Tone Quest because all I'm concerned about is the drummer and I locking in. Let everyone else worry about their tone. I'm no longer trying to cut through the mix because my sound now is unmistakably me and my bass. I don't even have to get into volume wars anymore to hear myself, because no matter how loud the guitar is, I'm play lower notes anyway and my bass sounds nothing like the guitars. I'm no longer looking for tone that isn't there. Well, it is but the guitars have that tone covered.

Let's face it...Entwistle even said as much himself when getting the whole roundwound craze going with Rotosound..."Bass is just another guitar right? Entwistle wanted to (and did obviously) play bass like a guitar and be out front (with his sound). Thus the roundwound craze was born. And every roundwound player since has been trying to hear themselves better. That is no coincidence, because everyone can't be out front. With everyone wanting to be out front, I am really digging it in back again, by the drummer. There is a power back there that the guitarists, keyboardist and singer can't even come close to touching. Let 'em be out front.

I spent 30 years working on that roundwound tone I love so much. I love the tone in other's playing, but I really, really hate it now for myself. I may appear on the surface to have a closed mind about this whole flat/round debate, but honestly my mind could not be more open. I'm just trying to open some other minds to an idea that seems to have been long forgotten.

+ 1 We've exchanged this in PM's, but I've to publicly say this - EXACTLY!!!

When I read your original post on this topic, it was like I was reading my own story, except that I hadn't put on flats yet. Same exact band make-up, same style of music, same age. It was freaking me out. I am all over my Chromes and never going back. Been there for a year and diggin the groove.

I'm not Entwistle, I'm not Geddy and I'm not Chris Squire. My band isn't the Who, we aren't Rush and we aren't Yes. We're a classic rock cover band and my Chromes fit so you can't acquit. I'm full on guilty... Well, we do play a couple of who songs, but I just turn on my Micro POG with a hint of the higher octave and I get enough top end zing to fake it so I don't have to switch basses for the song.

[low on toner]

So yesterday, I finally put the chromes on, and spent over three hours playing because it sounded so damn good. My guess is my bass, a bubinga, wenge neck, wenge fretboard Warwick was already prone to accentuating harmonics. I have been battling the eq to try to emphasize the fundamentals. I've been blaming my pickups, my preamp (yamaha pb-1), my bass cab (pjb neo-8) everything except my strings. Ironically (or not?) the least expensive part of my whole setup.

So when Sundogue mentioned that about flats, a light bulb went off.

They still have a little bit of zing, but imagine that will fade as they break in. I also don't miss the "zip" from my poor technique. The biggest thing is I can just flat eq it and it sounds great. That is huge if/when using a DI and house sound.

Now I just have to adjust the string height and intonation and I'm set!

Thanks Sundogue, thank you, thank you.

[frianbisher]

I like both

Roto flats on my Modulus Flea gives you low end like no other and a "smooth" high end. Main reason I put flats on it is I found the Flea to be way too bright with rounds. Too much cutting thru the mix. I also like the feel of those flats and they produce a pretty good slap tone as well.

I also left GHS rounds on the Vintage Jazz so I can switch back and forth. If I want to slap thats the bass I reach for and I also use it mostly for modern sounds.

Flats win for me but just by a hair.