Consequences of NOT cutting

[khutch]

Originally Posted by walterw

y'know, there's a guy selling tuners that have threaded grooves on the posts to ensure the wraps go all the way down; ...

I have a lot of problems with what he says. He may be on to something but I see no evidence that he understands what he is observing. He is careless about his language: he uses their when he means there; he uses caliber when he means caliper and that is made even worse by the fact that neither is correct because he is using a dial indicator not a dial caliper. He clearly does not understand vector mechanics. The replacement machine heads he sells do change the angle of the string tension and so they are potentially of value to address the issues he sees on existing basses. Yet he builds prototypes of custom basses with traditional headstocks in unusual configurations to address those same issues when the headless bass design (which he mentions) eliminates all possibility of those issues. So why aren't his custom design basses headless??? He ought to discuss that. Yes, his measurements show a difference using his machine heads versus traditional machine heads but the measurements are made on two completely different basses (one has a black headstock, the other a natural wood headstock) which completely invalidates the A/B comparison. Does he not understand that? Or is he just a huckster who is hoping you won't notice?

He seems like a nice enough guy in the second video where he is talking so I will give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his personal honesty. I am left with the doubts about his depth of understanding of the issues though. He may (or may not) have stumbled onto something significant. He either does not understand it or does not understand how to explain it so I have to regard his theory as one needing a lot of verification.

Ken

[horus]

Originally Posted by khutch

I have a lot of problems with what he says. He may be on to something but I see no evidence that he understands what he is observing. He is careless about his language: he uses their when he means there; he uses caliber when he means caliper and that is made even worse by the fact that neither is correct because he is using a dial indicator not a dial caliper. He clearly does not understand vector mechanics. The replacement machine heads he sells do change the angle of the string tension and so they are potentially of value to address the issues he sees on existing basses. Yet he builds prototypes of custom basses with traditional headstocks in unusual configurations to address those same issues when the headless bass design (which he mentions) eliminates all possibility of those issues. So why aren't his custom design basses headless??? He ought to discuss that. Yes, his measurements show a difference using his machine heads versus traditional machine heads but the measurements are made on two completely different basses (one has a black headstock, the other a natural wood headstock) which completely invalidates the A/B comparison. Does he not understand that? Or is he just a huckster who is hoping you won't notice?

He seems like a nice enough guy in the second video where he is talking so I will give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his personal honesty. I am left with the doubts about his depth of understanding of the issues though. He may (or may not) have stumbled onto something significant. He either does not understand it or does not understand how to explain it so I have to regard his theory as one needing a lot of verification.

Ken

There are lots of really smart folks out there who don't know proper English usage or how to spell correctly. I try not to look down on how someone spells or phrases things, and get the message being transmitted.

This fellow doesn't seem to grasp the weasel-words of the technology he's using all that well, but his insights into string and headstock behavior have value nonetheless.

Why didn't he think of headless designs? Perhaps he was so focused on solving the problem with a new tuner head design that it never occurred to him? It is truly written: sometimes, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

He should probably keep working at it. Who knows what he will eventually come up with?

Later On,
D

[Tommy el Gato]

Returning for a moment to all of this about cutting strings and whatnot, I just wanted to jump in here with my own experiences:

I never used to trim my strings. I was even smart enough to find the hole in the posts where I stick the ends and the only string that ever had overlappings was the E string. But I kept everything neat, just like you see in Danomite's picture. I never had any issues with tuning stability, once I broke in a string. In fact, only issue I've ever had was techs who would cut strings too short following a setup and I obviously never went back to said techs. (I do better set ups on my own equipment, despite not being a professional, than anyone else ever did. )

Now I only cut my E string, just enough to prevent overlapping. I forget what the problem with that is. Someone explained it to me once, but I don't remember what exactly was the issue because it never occurred on any of my basses. Now-days I'm just concerned with have a superfluous amount of wrap on the peg to make the break angle superfluous with regard to avoiding open string buzz.

[nukes_da_bass]

My late friend and luthier Gary used to say "2 to 3 windings on each post, NO overlap. Overlap deadens the vibrations".

Gary built guitars for people like Cat Stevens. Gary taught me how to trim down to 2 or 3 windings on the post.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by khutch

...he builds prototypes of custom basses with traditional headstocks in unusual configurations to address those same issues when the headless bass design...eliminates all possibility of those issues. So why aren't his custom design basses headless??? He ought to discuss that.

well, plenty of folks just don't dig headless basses, and they introduce their own set of compromises with string choice, playing feel at the first fret, and bridge complexity.

Originally Posted by khutch

Yes, his measurements show a difference using his machine heads versus traditional machine heads but the measurements are made on two completely different basses (one has a black headstock, the other a natural wood headstock) which completely invalidates the A/B comparison.

now that i didn't notice! yeah, it totally throws out any results here.

somebody needs to test this the right way; get a bass with straight-sided keys, string it up with the strings taking off from the middle of the posts, bolt it down with the dial indicator on it and see how much flex you get.

then, simply loosen the strings and slide the wraps all the way down to the bottom of the posts, re-tune and try again, having changed nothing but the angle off of the tuner posts.

[Pilgrim]

Properly installed strings - regardless of the type of tuner - do not have ends sticking out. If you see that, the strings are installed incorrectly.

[Bassic Playing]

I always cut my bass strings and am completely anal about how nice they look, mostly to make up for how shockingly bad I am at putting electric guitar strings on.

[onosson]

I used to cut my bass strings, but over the past decade I've stopped completely. I fit the end of the string into the hole in the tuner, put tension on it with my right hand by pulling upwards (away from the body of the bass), and wind it nice and neat. No problems, no cutting needed. The strings almost never go out of tune when they are installed with enough tension as you wind them. IME.

Guitar strings I do cut, as I find it much harder to get them to wind nicely beyond 2-3 winds around the post while maintaining adequate tension.

[Munjibunga]

Not trimming the strings gives you a good place to stick your cigarette while you're playing.

[Jazz Ad]

Welcome to the 10s, where all playing places are non smoking.

[wolfrunmusic]

I've read it's best to bend the string at a right angle before cutting off the end. Anyone had any experience that this is true.

[Jazz Ad]

Before or after cutting doesn't mean the least but you need to do it, especially on the bigger strings and with flats.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Welcome to the 10s, where all playing places are non smoking.

Praise god, whatever you perceive it to be. (California's been a non-smoking state for over 20 years. Georgia, not so much.)

[AudioDwebe]

I've read it's easier to catch VD.

(hopefully I'm not the 2nd, 3rd or 8th person to try and be funny...I've not read through the post)

I cut my strings.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by wolfrunmusic

I've read it's best to bend the string at a right angle before cutting off the end. Anyone had any experience that this is true.

Only if you insert the bent end into the tuner, as is the design on most tuners today...and inserting the end into the hole is the correct way to install strings on that type of tuner.

Otherwise, clip the end cleanly, with sharp cutters (not cutters that have been banging around in a toolbox and being abused for 30 years) and don't worry about it.

[khutch]

Originally Posted by walterw

well, plenty of folks just don't dig headless basses, and they introduce their own set of compromises with string choice, playing feel at the first fret, and bridge complexity.

Fair enough but then why not try to address those issues with headless basses, if you believe the traditional headstock's issues are as severe as he makes them out to be? As I said, an effective presentation on his part would have discussed these issues since he brought up the headless design.

Again, I am not saying this guy is wrong, just that he has not done the work to prove that he is right and that his sloppiness about other matters naturally raises questions about his veracity. For all I know he is on to something but I can't award him the Nobel Prize based on this presentation! In addition, not cutting your E & A strings accomplishes the same thing as his replacement tuners if you wrap the excess as neatly as shown in the photo above and the string tree helps a lot on the D & G strings.

Ken

[SurferJoe46]

Even THIS much extra string is a bad idea:::

[4dog]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

Even THIS much extra string is a bad idea:::

That IS fugly!!