Do your tapercore's play out of tune?

[hasbeen]

Interesting finding- I have a couple of high-end basses around with low B's.

All of them except one (Ken Smith BSTR Elite G) use regular (non-tapered) strings. On the KS, which I bought about ten months ago, I've been using his OEM, taper core strings.

So, I have kind of sensitive ears....wierd things...harmonics, overtones blah blah bothers them. Well, fretting the low C on the Ken Smith has always bothered me. So today, I plug into the tuner (a high quality strobe). I tune the open B....and, tune the B harmonic at the 12th fret.

Then, I fret the low C. It's flat by 10 cents!!!!!!! So, I'm not going crazy.
Now, this puzzles me at first. I've seen basses that will be sharp, because the nut is too high...but flat????!!! Then it dawns on me- taper core. Since the string is closer to the fret because it sits lower in the saddle, by the time it's fretted, there is less tension on it then on a "normal" string.

In the morning I'll put a normal low B on to test my theory. Does anybody have a bass at home now with a tapered low B to see if they experience the same thing?

[rsautrey]

In my experience, yes. I can never get the larger strings to intonate well. String action and pickup height have nothing to do with it. I did complete setups and I know that those weren't the issue. The issue is how much taper or exposed core there is beyond the witness point at the bridge. Here's a useful thread from another forum:

http://forum.extendedrangebassist.co...hp?topic=165.0

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by rsautrey

In my experience, yes. I can never get the larger strings to intonate well. String action and pickup height have nothing to do with it. I did complete setups and I know that those weren't the issue. The issue is how much taper or exposed core there is beyond the witness point at the bridge. Here's a useful thread from another forum:

http://forum.extendedrangebassist.co...hp?topic=165.0

thanks very much for the link. Well, I did put on a "full-length" low B and ran the same test. Perfect intonation! The downside? Well, I buy strings by the box and I just got 6 sets of KS taper cores.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by rsautrey

In my experience, yes. I can never get the larger strings to intonate well. String action and pickup height have nothing to do with it. I did complete setups and I know that those weren't the issue. The issue is how much taper or exposed core there is beyond the witness point at the bridge. Here's a useful thread from another forum:

http://forum.extendedrangebassist.co...hp?topic=165.0

hmm...I read that whole thread on ERB...thanks again. But, they are having a different issue. Nobody seems to mention the string playing flat. One poster also mentions the problem is worse the higher you play. I find the exact opposite to be true.

[Tom7]

If this helps, I somewhat recently received an FBass BN6 that has this problem. It sounds great when you play near the nut, but harmonics, and playing up the neck towards the bridge bring funky intonation problems that drive me nuts, so I wrote the luthier, George Furlanetto about it.

He said that the intonation thing is caused by the string vibrating too close to the magnetic pickup near the neck. He suggested lowering it slightly until the problem is gone.

On the other hand, a non-tapered string rides higher in the saddle and further from the pickups, so that could explain what you are experiencing.

[Eublet]

Roger,

I had a similar issue on my Modulus Q6. I've given up on Taper cores. I'm not sure what it is really. The Q's have Hipshot bridges, which places the ball end of the string very close to the saddle, so a good portion of the core wind reaches out over the bridge pup just a bit. On the B string, it sounds as if two notes are being played at the same time, with one of them being a 1/4 tone flat, so you have this wavering tone happening.

At first, I thought it was because the bridge pup was seeing a lower string mass, but it still did this with the neck pup only. Then I unplugged and it does the exact same thing acoustically. Very strange. I wanted to try putting some spacers on the ball end to see if it would put more of the strings mass near the saddle and fix the problem. But decided it wouldn't be worth the trouble. If I can ever find a taper core that's only around 1.5" from the ball, I might try them again.

Perhaps my issue isn't that strange at all. I've just never seen it before.

[rsautrey]

"He said that the intonation thing is caused by the string vibrating too close to the magnetic pickup near the neck. He suggested lowering it slightly until the problem is gone."

No offense to George F. or Ken Smith (who once told me the same thing) but i disagree with this. No amount of lowering pickups will change this problem, which also happens acoustically. I strongly believe the difference in mass per unit length of the string makes it impossible to achieve good intonation. This is why the problem gets worse the higher up the neck you go.

[rsautrey]

hasbeen, so you have good intonation up the neck? just flat in the lower positions?

[Tom7]

Rsautry -- Since the pickups are magnets, wouldn't they still affect the vibration of the metal strings, and hence the tone, even when the bass isn't plugged in and is just being played "acoustically?"

Oh, and the reason the problem gets worse as you go up the neck is because you are pushing the string down even closer to the magnets of the neck pick up as you are fretting up there by it.

Obviously, I'm no expert, it I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night and it makes sense to me. ;-)

[rsautrey]

Tom7, Obviously I'm no expert either, and I've never even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express! Anyway, did lowering the pickups remedy the problem on your F Bass? I've only tried taperwound/exposed core strings on Fender basses and no amount of lowering pickups/raising action, etc. would ever get rid of warbling/double tones beyond the 8th or 9th fret on my E string. I'd hate to think how bad it would be on a B string.

[hasbeen]

I have that covered but I appreciate your input....thanks for taking the time.

Originally Posted by Tom7

If this helps, I somewhat recently received an FBass BN6 that has this problem. It sounds great when you play near the nut, but harmonics, and playing up the neck towards the bridge bring funky intonation problems that drive me nuts, so I wrote the luthier, George Furlanetto about it.

He said that the intonation thing is caused by the string vibrating too close to the magnetic pickup near the neck. He suggested lowering it slightly until the problem is gone.

On the other hand, a non-tapered string rides higher in the saddle and further from the pickups, so that could explain what you are experiencing.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by rsautrey

hasbeen, so you have good intonation up the neck? just flat in the lower positions?

the funny thing is that it is inconsistant up the neck....flat in some places, in-tune in some and "warbling" so badly in others that you can't get a read.

So, I put on a "full diameter" string.....problem gone! And, much punshier and believe it or not....more defined too.

Go figure.

Disclaimer- I was getting such wierd, inconsistant oscillations up the neck that I also wonder if I had a bum string. I will try a fresh taper core to see.

It's almost like when a person puts on a string that is twisted and it doesn't ring true. Very wierd.

[hasbeen]

on a side note: I'm a little curious as to how Ken Smith lets a bass go out that is 10 cents flat in the first position. He says he signs off on every bass.

[Tom7]

Originally Posted by rsautrey

Tom7, Obviously I'm no expert either, and I've never even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express!

That had me laughing out loud!

Originally Posted by rsautrey

Anyway, did lowering the pickups remedy the problem on your F Bass?

I am VERY tempted to lower the pickup just to test the theory, but I can't bring myself to do it.

I LOVE the tone of my new bass, and I'm afraid lowering the neck pickup will change the balance between the two pickups just a tad and tweak the tone I've paid thousands to have -- not to mention what it might do to the space / time continuum. Additionally, I have a transparent finger bridge between the pickups and everything is flush right now.

Besides, sometimes I want to play with my fingers right against the bridge (for a Jaco-esque staccato), and I cannot do that with tapered strings (my finger strikes core wire with no wrapping), so I know I'm going to change out the tapered strings anyway.

But before I do, I may just carefully lower the neck pickup, counting screw turns, test the bass, then put it back.

We'll see.

Originally Posted by rsautrey

I've only tried taperwound/exposed core strings on Fender basses and no amount of lowering pickups/raising action, etc. would ever get rid of warbling/double tones beyond the 8th or 9th fret on my E string. I'd hate to think how bad it would be on a B string.

It is bad on the B string. I was so let down in fact, that I almost sent my bass back the day after I got it.

The thing is, Holiday Inn Express or not, George Furlanetto and Ken Smith really ARE experts, and they independently came up with the same diagnosis and solution to this problem, so I've got to give them the benefit of the doubt until I can definitively prove them wrong.

Which I may go ahead and take the time tonight to experiment with. Stay tuned. :-)

[speyer]

I will be receiving my FBass BN6 next week sometime, and have thought about asking George to set it up with my usual strings- DR Low rider stainless.

All this exposed core talk is making me think about it seriously, because I've had reservations since the beginning.

Other than the harmonic issues mentioned above... is anyone interested in presenting some pros/cons towards exposed core strings? So that I can make a well informed decision before it goes out on delivery.

I don't know a heck of a lot about string physics, but I'm pretty sure my ears will notice anything out of the ordinary immediately. And I also feel that on any "boutique" bass, one shouldn't have to compromise between the setup of your pups and strings... to get things working wonderfully. IMHO.

[hasbeen]

well-

I just put on a fresh set of KS Nickel tapercore....same issue. Errant oscillations up and down the low B. Put on a set of DR Sunbeams.........spot on.

No more taper core for me. The low B on the DR's is so much punchier and articulate (go figure).

[Eublet]

The only taper core strings I ever REALLY liked were the Gary Willis GHS Progressives. I had them on an Ibanez GWB1, his signature bass, so the fit perfectly. The taper started very near the saddle, and I had no problems with them. It seems they've always been hit or miss otherwise. At least with a conventional string, you know more of what your gonna get I think.

I really like the Sunbeams myself. They have a good feel to them, and are a little less stiff than some. I wish that they would make a coated version just like the Elixir, just so they would last longer with all the sweaty outdoor gigs this time of year.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by Eublet

The only taper core strings I ever REALLY liked were the Gary Willis GHS Progressives. I had them on an Ibanez GWB1, his signature bass, so the fit perfectly. The taper started very near the saddle, and I had no problems with them. It seems they've always been hit or miss otherwise. At least with a conventional string, you know more of what your gonna get I think.

I really like the Sunbeams myself. They have a good feel to them, and are a little less stiff than some. I wish that they would make a coated version just like the Elixir, just so they would last longer with all the sweaty outdoor gigs this time of year.

hmmm...GHS progressives. I just might give those a try too. I do have Sunbeams on everyother bass I own. I just stuck with these KS tapers because I bought the bass last year and it came with those on it. I didn't feel like doing a complete setup to put my Sunbeams on.

In the end, I'm consulting right now for a brand of bass string. They just asked me last week if they should add taper cores. At this point....man, I don't know.

[ibz]

La Bella makes all of my favorite roundwounds. They're taper, they sound and play so damn good!

Any good taper always sounded better to me over higher end non tapered's for the B.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

Interesting finding- I have a couple of high-end basses around with low B's.

All of them except one (Ken Smith BSTR Elite G) use regular (non-tapered) strings. On the KS, which I bought about ten months ago, I've been using his OEM, taper core strings.

So, I have kind of sensitive ears....wierd things...harmonics, overtones blah blah bothers them. Well, fretting the low C on the Ken Smith has always bothered me. So today, I plug into the tuner (a high quality strobe). I tune the open B....and, tune the B harmonic at the 12th fret.

Then, I fret the low C. It's flat by 10 cents!!!!!!! So, I'm not going crazy.
Now, this puzzles me at first. I've seen basses that will be sharp, because the nut is too high...but flat????!!! Then it dawns on me- taper core. Since the string is closer to the fret because it sits lower in the saddle, by the time it's fretted, there is less tension on it then on a "normal" string.

In the morning I'll put a normal low B on to test my theory. Does anybody have a bass at home now with a tapered low B to see if they experience the same thing?

Did you readjust string height and intonation after installing the tapercores? That's a good idea every time you switch brands and/or gauges, and pretty much mandatory when switching from standard strings to tapercores.