flats and tension question

[p12bassnut]

I was wondering what flats have the least amount of tension?

I love the feel and sound of flats but I don;t want to put too much extra strain on the neck.

Thanks in advance

[sevenyearsdown]

Flats aren't going to strain a neck, unless you have some 40 year old beater that is ready to fall apart. You will just have to adjust your truss rod and set the bass up accordingly.

I have them on 3 bass guitars - no such problems.

[Sparkdog]

That's probably Thomastik Infeld

[Double Agent]

From what I've heard....TI Jazz Flats.

[PSPookie]

TI jazz flats

[jordie65]

got TI jazz flats myself and they are the lowest tension flats ive ever played. ive tried a fair few different brands and these are hands down the lowest tension. great strings though!

[groovenut57]

I use D'Addario Chromes 40-100 (ECB84). Their overall "tension" (linear pulling force) is less than their standard nickel rounds 45-105 (EXL165), so they shouldn't be that hard on the neck at all.

The other consideration with flats, though, is their "stiffness" (resistance to the plucking force), which may affect the overall playability and feel more than they affect the neck of your bass.

[JustDavid]

Are you thinking that Flats have high tension? It's a myth.

TI Jazz Flats might be way too low tension for you: VERY low tension string. D'Addario Chromes are about normal for tension. I'm not sure about some of the others because a lot of the others can't be bothered to let us know their products' specs.

If high tension is a worry you might want to stick to strings that have published tension data. Juststrings.com usually lists the data if they can.

[HogieWan]

Originally Posted by groovenut57

The other consideration with flats, though, is their "stiffness" (resistance to the plucking force), which may affect the overall playability and feel more than they affect the neck of your bass.

This - flats don't necessarily have more tension, but they do feel stiffer

[MKoby]

Thomastik Infeld

[seanm]

Originally Posted by JustDavid

Are you thinking that Flats have high tension? It's a myth.

String tension is directly related to mass. All things being equal, a flat wound string will have more mass than a round wound since it doesn't have the gaps a round wound does. More mass = more tension.

TIs get their low tension by replacing some of the metal with silk, which reduces the mass.

Will flats be a problem for the neck? Take a look at a Hofner, or a Hagstrom, very thin narrow necks and they came stock with flats.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by seanm

String tension is directly related to mass. All things being equal, a flat wound string will have more mass than a round wound since it doesn't have the gaps a round wound does. More mass = more tension.

True, but are all things equal?

D'addario's long scale 0.100 E's at pitch on 34" scale have tensions of:
Steels 34.4
XL 36.5
Half-rounds 37.6
Chromes 38.4
Phosphor Bronze 40.2.
Turning the Steels into Chromes (if that's what they do) increases the tension by 12%. I'd expect more increase than that.

I don't know how to go back & re-quote you, but I'd say you nailed it with the point about TI using different core materials.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by seanm

String tension is directly related to mass. All things being equal, a flat wound string will have more mass than a round wound since it doesn't have the gaps a round wound does. More mass = more tension.

Not nessesarly true, we are talking span here and the span is from the bridge to the nut. If a string was a solid rod then its loading points( the bridge and the nut) the closer they are, the better the reduction in tension. So the deeper the mass in loading is what's calculated as tension, in other words if it if say 50mm x 200mm its resistance to tension loading will be better if loaded 200mm deep rather than 50mm deep( as in a floor joist).

Strings are in essence a cable so each of it strands has the potential to have tension if loaded. Since they are wound around a core and as a rule the core takes the main tension not the winding then it is the way the string is constructed not its mass that will govern tension. Cable stay tension bridges have less mass, but can cover more span than a solid mass bridge construction. But i'm no string expert but i have a good understanding of stress and tension in materials, and as a flatwound user i am interested in finding out if this is so that as far as strings go mass does indeed = tension. I use Ernie ball heavy flatwound which have low tension, so i am curious as well in other brands that have the same properties.

[mellowgerman]

I've tried pretty much every type of flat out on the general market right now... TI flats were very low tension, but I thought they lacked far too much of that beefy quality I love so much. So they were not really my cup of tea.
My favorite ones are a set of Fender 9050M flats (55-105). If you get a good set (because I have found that fender strings are hit-and-miss); once they're broken in there's nothing like them in my opinion. I've had this same set for about 6 or 7 years. I've tried other brands since I bought them but always come back to them. Tension isn't too much either.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Not nessesarly true, we are talking span here and the span is from the bridge to the nut. If a string was a solid rod then its loading points( the bridge and the nut) the closer they are, the better the reduction in tension. So the deeper the mass in loading is what's calculated as tension, in other words if it if say 50mm x 200mm its resistance to tension loading will be better if loaded 200mm deep rather than 50mm deep( as in a floor joist).

Strings are in essence a cable so each of it strands has the potential to have tension if loaded. Since they are wound around a core and as a rule the core takes the main tension not the winding then it is the way the string is constructed not its mass that will govern tension. Cable stay tension bridges have less mass, but can cover more span than a solid mass bridge construction. But i'm no string expert but i have a good understanding of stress and tension in materials, and as a flatwound user i am interested in finding out if this is so that as far as strings go mass does indeed = tension. I use Ernie ball heavy flatwound which have low tension, so i am curious as well in other brands that have the same properties.

Interesting. It'd be informative to deconstruct some strings (flats lasting in application like they do, a roundwound set someone's given up on?) & evaluate/measure the core sctrucural components.

[Hamrhed]

Originally Posted by Sparkdog

That's probably Thomastik Infeld

+1
And the Labella Jamerson flats I once had on a '53 RI P bass were the tightest strings Ive ever had; as far as flats the TI Jazz flats were the best tension-wise...

Originally Posted by JustDavid

Are you thinking that Flats have high tension? It's a myth.

Its not a myth- as stated above Ime

[251]

Originally Posted by seanm

String tension is directly related to mass.

snip

Hagstrom, very thin narrow necks and they came stock with flats.

You are mistaken. String tension depends on the physical properties of the core wire; diameter, modulus of elasticity, tensile strength, etc. These are determined by the metallurgy of the wire, the way it was processed and handled during manufacture of the wire & later, the string.

In other words, if wound and exposed core strings are made with the same core wire, their tension readings when stretched to pitch should be nearly identical.

The wrap wire, round, flat, ground ... can affect string tension when the string is vibrating. However, the windings are never in tension and the effect on tension when vibrating is small compared to that set by the core wire.

Some string makers post the tensile force at pitch for their strings. Check the mechanical specs on their website. TI does have some of the lowest tension strings available, but I don't find mechanical specs on their site. Just Strings posts the info sometimes. Look here for the TI Jazz Flat specs; http://www.juststrings.com/toi-jf344.html

Hope that helps.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by 251

You are mistaken. String tension depends on the physical properties of the core wire; diameter, modulus of elasticity, tensile strength, etc. These are determined by the metallurgy of the wire, the way it was processed and handled during manufacture of the wire & later, the string.

In other words, if wound and exposed core strings are made with the same core wire, their tension readings when stretched to pitch should be nearly identical.

The wrap wire, round, flat, ground ... can affect string tension when the string is vibrating. However, the windings are never in tension and the effect on tension when vibrating is small compared to that set by the core wire.

Some string makers post the tensile force at pitch for their strings. Check the mechanical specs on their website. TI does have some of the lowest tension strings available, but I don't find mechanical specs on their site. Just Strings posts the info sometimes. Look here for the TI Jazz Flat specs; http://www.juststrings.com/toi-jf344.html

Hope that helps.

Is this why some strings just have the core over the bridge and the winding start after the bridge? Or is that just because of variable bridge distance from the anchor point?

[seanm]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Not nessesarly true, we are talking span here and the span is from the bridge to the nut. If a string was a solid rod then its loading points( the bridge and the nut) the closer they are, the better the reduction in tension. So the deeper the mass in loading is what's calculated as tension, in other words if it if say 50mm x 200mm its resistance to tension loading will be better if loaded 200mm deep rather than 50mm deep( as in a floor joist).

Strings are in essence a cable so each of it strands has the potential to have tension if loaded. Since they are wound around a core and as a rule the core takes the main tension not the winding then it is the way the string is constructed not its mass that will govern tension. Cable stay tension bridges have less mass, but can cover more span than a solid mass bridge construction. But i'm no string expert but i have a good understanding of stress and tension in materials, and as a flatwound user i am interested in finding out if this is so that as far as strings go mass does indeed = tension. I use Ernie ball heavy flatwound which have low tension, so i am curious as well in other brands that have the same properties.

Originally Posted by 251

You are mistaken. String tension depends on the physical properties of the core wire; diameter, modulus of elasticity, tensile strength, etc. These are determined by the metallurgy of the wire, the way it was processed and handled during manufacture of the wire & later, the string.

In other words, if wound and exposed core strings are made with the same core wire, their tension readings when stretched to pitch should be nearly identical.

The wrap wire, round, flat, ground ... can affect string tension when the string is vibrating. However, the windings are never in tension and the effect on tension when vibrating is small compared to that set by the core wire.

Some string makers post the tensile force at pitch for their strings. Check the mechanical specs on their website. TI does have some of the lowest tension strings available, but I don't find mechanical specs on their site. Just Strings posts the info sometimes. Look here for the TI Jazz Flat specs; http://www.juststrings.com/toi-jf344.html

Hope that helps.

I could be wrong..... I am not an expert on strings Every equation I have seen for string tension has tension directly dependent on mass... but the equations could be wrong.

[251]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Is this why some strings just have the core over the bridge and the winding start after the bridge? Or is that just because of variable bridge distance from the anchor point?

I think the exposed core wire was first used on pianos. Why it is used for any given instrument is a question I will leave to the Luthiers here.

I once loaded exposed core wire on my Steinberger and could not get it in tune. The harmonics generated by the string with core wire on the bridge were just too wierd. 8-)