Flats versus Rounds...and how they sit in the mix.

Sundogue · #1 12-16-2008, 03:39 PM

I've been giving some serious thought to my sound lately (well...who here hasn't?).

We all know that the sound we get playing alone does not often translate well into a group environment. One thing I've found is that for all the brightness and "zing" I may get from roundwounds, onstage the very thing I find appealing about them gets lost in the mix. Not always...but a majority of the time. And it isn't just a volume issue, but rather how I fit into the mix with a drummer, two guitars and keyboards (and no, the keyboardist does not play with a heavy left hand at all). And this isn't an issue with me lacking in mids. My cabs are more mid heavy and I add mids to the mix as well.

One of my gigs a while back was a total sound nightmare for me personally and no matter what I did tonally, there was just no definition. I could hear myself, but it was all just mush along with everything else. I might as well have just played the root notes all night long for all that it mattered. I tried boosting mids, cutting lows all to no avail. And we weren't even playing all that loud.

I recently put on some old TI Jazz flats I had lying around. I've been messing around with my amp and Zoom pedal trying various settings I thought would work in a band setting. Not to my liking personally, by myself, but something I thought would give me my own space sonically onstage.

Well, I had my first gig with the TI Flats (same place where my sound was dreadfully dull) and I have to say that I was overwhelmed by the tight sound I had. It was nothing bright like roundwounds (as in that zingy brilliance from a RW), but it seemed to be more percussive.

While flats have often been described as dull or giving more "thud", I think what I like so well with flats in a band setting is that my notes (even the high notes) stand out so much more due to the flats giving each note a more distinct percussive snap, instead of the slighter, bright zing (which gets lost for me anyway).

It seems to me that while I love roundwounds for their brightness, that quality gets lost for me onstage. The band I play in is more a traditional rock cover band. In my situation the benefits of a roundwound get lost with the other guitars not because of volume or a lack of mids, but because the very thing roundwounds excel at seems to be in competition with the sound of the guitars.

I've never really been a flat string kind of bass player, but I have to admit that for me at least, flats seem to stand out more in the mix than roundwounds. At least the TI's did for me. It seemed as though my bass was being heard as a BASS and not just a lower tuned guitar. There was more definition to my sound, even if it lacked in the appealing roundwound brightness I've liked.

What do the rest of you Flatwound players think about flats sitting in the mix versus roundwounds? And how would you describe that sound?

eedo · #2 12-16-2008, 04:10 PM

All the same. I see no point in playing rounds in a 4 or more piece band live, unless you are slapping or soloing.
Flats are also relatively mid haevy. When I switched to flats i stopped EQing - the sound is just what the band needs.
Even the drummer from my band complemented on how flats sound with drums.
Flats still can sound agressive if needed.

edbutler3 · #3 12-16-2008, 04:14 PM

I think flats make a lot of sense in your musical situation. With two guitars plus keyboards (and vocals I assume), your band already has a whole lot going on in the mids and hi-mids, so adding a bunch of roundwound "zing" to that same area is probably counter-productive. Flats will tend to focus your sound into the lows and low-mids, which should help you find a slot in the mix above the kick drum and below the guitars -- as long as the guitars don't boost their lows and take up all the space. :-/

My current project has just one guitar (we're a trio) so I don't have the same issues to deal with, but I do have a 5-string Lull P-bass strung with TI flats that I would probably want to use if I had to deal with a larger band.

Another thing you could try (if you haven't already) is nickel roundwounds, such as the DR Sunbeams or DR Nickel Lo-Riders. The nickel strings are darker in tone than stainless steel rounds without sounding as radically different as the flats. But it sounds like you're happy with the TI flats, so you may already have your solution.

eedo · #4 12-16-2008, 04:17 PM

Need to add that rounds' brightness is in 5-7 kHz (easy to lose in the mix) when flats' brightness is in 3-3.5 kHz (much more audible)

bassbully · #5 12-16-2008, 04:18 PM

I am kinda in the same boat. I play in a country, rockabily,oldies band and used to use Chromes on my P basses. The bandleader loved the thud and tone but said he couldnt hear me and i got lost in the guitar and steel players mix when i walked off the E or A strings

Now in my kind of music those are my go to strings but i do alot of fills and walks using D and G string which get into the guitar tones.

I started using rounds TI powerbass and Fender 7510's and 7250's to see whats was best. So far the roundwounds are ok not great OK. I still think there is time i am lost in the mix and no EQing or volume changes it...much.
I also feel the front of house mix is importent and what we hear on stage v.s. out front is different.

I will be interested in seeing like you what others say on this. If its a string thang I am kind of shaking my head saying ..duh

I like flats alot love the feel and that thumpy tone i grew up with. I also dig rounds more so when they die then they are nice. I feel i can be more creative on rounds than flats but that in my head maybe.

I cant keep trying new strings its too expensive. As much as i would like to try TI jazz flats i wont cough up the cash...unless some Tber has a set to sell me that will fit a Fender

Sundogue · #6 12-16-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edbutler3

I think flats make a lot of sense in your musical situation. With two guitars plus keyboards (and vocals I assume), your band already has a whole lot going on in the mids and hi-mids, so adding a bunch of roundwound "zing" to that same area is probably counter-productive. Flats will tend to focus your sound into the lows and low-mids, which should help you find a slot in the mix above the kick drum and below the guitars -- as long as the guitars don't boost their lows and take up all the space. :-/

My current project has just one guitar (we're a trio) so I don't have the same issues to deal with, but I do have a 5-string Lull P-bass strung with TI flats that I would probably want to use if I had to deal with a larger band.

Another thing you could try (if you haven't already) is nickel roundwounds, such as the DR Sunbeams or DR Nickel Lo-Riders. The nickel strings are darker in tone than stainless steel rounds without sounding as radically different as the flats. But it sounds like you're happy with the TI flats, so you may already have your solution.

My guitarists aren't your typical guitards...they are actually very cool about the whole mix of the band. Still, like you mention we are a full 5 piece band (and we all sing lead/harmony) so yes, there is already a lot of sonic content onstage.

My favorite roundwound are the Sunbeams. But they still do not offer what the flats are giving me right now.

I don't slap much or solo, but I'd always thought of flats as being more for something like a blues gig...more subdued. But really these flats are anything but subdued. It's more like they knock you over the head with pure bass tone.

I've used these TI's before and liked them but never kept them on long (different basses and rigs). They are on my modded P-Bass now so perhaps I've just found this latest combination more to my liking.

I do agree with you that I seem to have my own sonic space now above the kick drum but below the guitars, whereas before I think I was too much into the guitar spectrum with the roundwounds.

Sundogue · #7 12-16-2008, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassbully

I am kinda in the same boat. I play in a country, rockabily,oldies band and used to use Chromes on my P basses. The bandleader loved the thud and tone but said he couldnt hear me and i got lost in the guitar and steel players mix when i walked off the E or A strings

Now in my kind of music those are my go to strings but i do alot of fills and walks using D and G string which get into the guitar tones.

I started using rounds TI powerbass and Fender 7510's and 7250's to see whats was best. So far the roundwounds are ok not great OK. I still think there is time i am lost in the mix and no EQing or volume changes it...much.
I also feel the front of house mix is importent and what we hear on stage v.s. out front is different.

I will be interested in seeing like you what others say on this. If its a string thang I am kind of shaking my head saying ..duh

I like flats alot love the feel and that thumpy tone i grew up with. I also dig rounds more so when they die then they are nice. I feel i can be more creative on rounds than flats but that in my head maybe.

I cant keep trying new strings its too expensive. As much as i would like to try TI jazz flats i wont cough up the cash...unless some Tber has a set to sell me that will fit a Fender

I'm fortunate in that we control our sound onstage ourselves (we all have wireless units). I get to set my own sound out front.

Very noticeable difference out front as well. It sounded good out front before (with RW's) even when onstage it didn't. But now the bass sounds "tighter", almost compressed (but not in a bad way). I'm assuming it has to do with flats quicker decay (although I really do not hear any discernible lack of sustain overall).

I seem to have more control over the flats than I had with the roundwounds. Again, perhaps a quicker decay with the flats frees me to not have to mute quite as much, and when I do play with a bit of muting, the percussive nature is so much stronger with flats.

I do know that the TI's seem to have better balance throughout than other flats I've tried in the past. My E string sounds brighter yet full, and the D and G strings are so much more full sounding than any roundwound I've ever used.

bassbully · #8 12-16-2008, 09:02 PM

OH great now i have to try them...thanks...thanks alot

BigOldHarry · #9 12-16-2008, 09:08 PM

I just like the feel of rounds - how the move on the fret, how I can feel the note in them. Flats seem just... flat to me. Yes, they have their place - but if I have a choice, I choose rounds.

Poor Tom · #10 12-16-2008, 09:20 PM

I also prefer the feel of rounds against my fingers, and I feel the sound is more versatile as well. I hate the feel of flats. So gummy and rubbery and just... eck!

ransombass · #11 12-16-2008, 09:29 PM

I've got two P-basses, one strung with flats and the other with rounds. I use both at every show. My personal preference is the one strung with flats because of the supportive yet authoritative tone it produces. The rounds work great for the newer country and rock stuff, but the flats seem to cover a broader range tonally.

Sundogue · #12 12-16-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

I just like the feel of rounds - how the move on the fret, how I can feel the note in them. Flats seem just... flat to me. Yes, they have their place - but if I have a choice, I choose rounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poor Tom

I also prefer the feel of rounds against my fingers, and I feel the sound is more versatile as well. I hate the feel of flats. So gummy and rubbery and just... eck!

I play both and understand the feel and the sound differences. Can you offer up some differences in how roundwounds sit in the mix versus flats?

greenboy · #13 12-17-2008, 08:07 AM

There is no one mix, there are many. But I find it easier to approximate the different slotting tendencies a flatwound has with a roundwound and hand technique and EQ, than I do trying to make a flatwound sound like various roundwound approaches. I find rounds more flexible tonally. But if you are always playing music that doesn't need what the roundwound offers anyway, go for flats.

JoelEoM · #14 12-17-2008, 08:26 AM

i use chromes on a cirrus BXP in a more modern rock project, a la taking back sunday/jimmy eats world style, and they fit wonderfully. at first it seemed kind of anti-rock tone by myself, when i was practicing parts, but like others have said, in the mix it fits perfectly. everything is extremely well defined and punchy, and the tone is placed perfectly in between the kick and the guitars. im not a huge fan of a lot of top end on bass anyway, so theyre working out for me. ive been itching to try a set of TIs though, once i have the spare cash. in any case, i cant see going back to rounds as a viable option anymore. i used to have tons of problems being heard, and once i switched, no more issues.

4Mal · #15 12-17-2008, 08:52 AM

Finding your space in the mix isn't a string 'thing' to me. It's more about where the 'sonic space' is and then EQ'ing with that in mind. My fills get heard primarily as they occur in spaces with the guitar's (or banjo, mando, violin) aren't happening. That is a timing thing ... If the mando or the tenor guitar or guitar is going off - then I'm laying back in other words.

My approach is basically listen to the mix and decide - where do I fit - then dial your sound in for that ...

jgroh · #16 12-17-2008, 09:03 AM

Ive been doing alot of thinking along these lines as well. I have always been a roundwound guy and never thought I would like flats. Now I am in a classic rock cover band as well with 2 guitars and a dynamic drummer (plus vocals) to alot of the nuances of rw's get lost for me in the mix too. I also noticed that I need to lay back a bit on my playing and EQ differently just to be heard.

I havent pulled the trigger and bought flats yet, but I think I might pick up a set of TI's and see how that goes.

Poor Tom · #17 12-17-2008, 02:59 PM

The sound of flats never really bothered me, I just hate the feel of them. If I could find a set of flats that felt the same as my d'addario xl220, I would be down to try them out. I am talking about gauge/tension/surface texture.

Flats sit well in many mixes, but the truth is that rounds do as well. The bright top end might have a tendency to get lost in guitar heavy passages, but you shouldn't be trying to have a solo then anyway. Rounds are bright, but they have plenty of bottom as well, so it isn't like the bottom magically goes away when the top gets lost in the mix.

all IMO of course

dougjwray · #18 12-17-2008, 03:18 PM

Sundogue, over the last few years I've had the same exact experience that you described. It seems counterintuitive that a "duller" sounding string would cut through better, but the difference is DRAMATIC. Not only with an acoustic guitar player who loves low end and thrashes away on it (the situation which initially led me to my revelation about flats) but also in a band setting with a couple of loud electric guitarists, keyboards and drummer. Any bassist who feels lost in the mix should at least give them a try. I do bring a second bass which has roundwounds, to most gigs, to cover the material that absolutely demands that sound.
Poor Tom, I don't think the issue is the lows. Rounds do have bottom, it's true; but I think the problem lies with the overtones they produce, which collide with too many other instruments. Flats are "drier" and thus don't seem to compete in those frequency ranges. (At least that's my non-scientific impression. All I can say is that there are many situations where I can hear myself with flats and can't with rounds, everything else being equal.)
As far as the feel of them, I'll play anything as long as they sound good!

greenboy · #19 12-17-2008, 05:13 PM

Both flats and rounds draw from the same natural overtone series. They just slightly emphasize and demphasize different portions of the natural overtone series. This is why selective EQ can get a round sounding very close to a flat. Vice versa is a little tougher if you are after round zing from a flat.

...But outside the overtone series, each string also produces some enharmonic tones related to inflexibility of strings, especially when a pick is used. Here's a tricker bit to deal with when using EQ if you want to hear that characteristic pick sound that flats tend toward.

DavePlaysBass · #20 12-17-2008, 07:13 PM

I have been satisfied with both at different times. I recently went from round steels to TI Flats to Nickel Rounds on my Sadowsky. I feel like a good set of nickel rounds gets the most milage. There are times for me when the flats seems to lack the definition and punch that I get from the rounds. But there are other times where the decay and fatness of the flats is great. But as the mix gets busier, I have a hard time making the flats work on a regular basis.