Which flatwounds did JPJ use in the early Led Zepp days?

[bigbajo60]

Originally Posted by 62Jazzbass

I don't mean to quibble with everyone here, but I have bootleg concert recordings from 1977 that contradict that. In 77 he was using the acoustic folded 18 cabs with GK tops, and Alembic basses (with rounds). This setup sounds quite bright to me, and a big contrast to say, the sound from 1973s Song Remains the Same recording.

I based my statement on my direct memories of listening to and playing through several makes and models of 18" folded horns (acoustic, cerwin-vega, etc) back in the day... I never heard anything that I could categorize as bright come out of those types of boxes.
We may, however, have differing definitions on what the term 'bright' is.

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by bigbajo60

We may, however, have differing definitions on what the term 'bright' is.

Indeed that could be. I will defer to you as I have never played through one.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by barebones

Has JPJ said that he used flats and tubes at some point? If so, that would certainly contradict what he said in the article I read. He was adamant about having not used those things.!

Not tubes, but in a Guitar Player Magazine interview around '77 or so, he said he used flats until he got his first Alembic. He tried flats on it, but realized those strings weren't doing the bass justice so he went to rounds on it. He also said he loved the big Acoustic amps. He'd try different kinds of new tube amps, and they'd always fail so he had the crew bring out his Acoustics with "loads of proper solid-state power".

Given that this interview was much closer to the time of the events, I tend to give credence to this view. Search the earlier thread(s) about his conflicting self testimony on strings, as one of them has the exact issue cited and properly quoted. I no longe have my issue so I can't write the exact quote.

John

[N.F.A.]

Originally Posted by 62Jazzbass

I don't mean to quibble with everyone here, but I have bootleg concert recordings from 1977 that contradict that. In 77 he was using the acoustic folded 18 cabs with GK tops, and Alembic basses (with rounds). This setup sounds quite bright to me, and a big contrast to say, the sound from 1973s Song Remains the Same recording.

Any particular 77 shows that we could use as a reference? I have tons of Zep boots.

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by N.F.A.

Any particular 77 shows that we could use as a reference? I have tons of Zep boots.

Found this earlier today, Greensoro NC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWhVqWFIICM

I would call this bright, maybe it's something else to others.

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by N.F.A.

I have tons of Zep boots.

We should talk, I don't. 😉

[bigbajo60]

Originally Posted by 62Jazzbass

Found this earlier today, Greensoro NC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWhVqWFIICM

I would call this bright, maybe it's something else to others.

Yes... I would agree! That is a fairly bright/aggressive/driven tone.
Would anyone have any information as to whether JPJ's signal for those shows was fed to FOH via any sort of DI line? That could help account for the brighter aspects of the tone on that recording!

I still hold to my personal recollection of the tonal characteristics of those folded horns. I remember Cerwin-Vega even putting out a version that had a front-firing 12" driver to make up for the lack of higher frequencies, so it would seem that even they were admitting to (and trying to address) the general design's shortcomings.

[jobo4]

I think he used strings made of 100% awesome. Check out the beginning of Dazed... the 2nd track on the reel.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature...&v=UNVRIPgfRNE

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by JTE

Given that this interview was much closer to the time of the events, I tend to give credence to this view. Search the earlier thread(s) about his conflicting self testimony on strings, as one of them has the exact issue cited and properly quoted. I no longer have my issue so I can't write the exact quote.

John

Right, exactly my thoughts. It seems to me his recollection would be more accurate in the period when he just retired the Jazz, rather than 30ish years later.

The old post with the exact quotes might be mine from a few years back. 😉

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by barebones

While the fat sound he got leads many bassists to believe he was using flats and tube amps, JPJ stated in a Bass Player article I read about a dozen years ago that he used round wound strings and solid state amps on all of his recordings.

+1

[N.F.A.]

Originally Posted by 62Jazzbass

We should talk, I don't. 😉

PM me.

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by stony

this has been discussed with him many times....he did not use flats they were rotosound rounds

+1

Yes it is easy for a skilled player to get a flat sound out of rounds.

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by bigbajo60

Would anyone have any information as to whether JPJ's signal for those shows was fed to FOH via any sort of DI line? That could help account for the brighter aspects of the tone on that recording!

Hmmm, now that would very interesting info to have. I agree that would account for the FOH tone I have heard.

In fact, what I have read about the 361 would indicate it would not do well with a mic in front of it, as I understand the sound develops way out in front of the cab. In fact, I've read that it's not great for hearing yourself on stage either.

I wonder if he ran another cab as well for monitoring use?

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by Ric5

+1

Yes it is easy for a skilled player to get a flat sound out of rounds.

Of course it is. He'll, I can do it and I am not that skilled.

What I don't understand is why everyone gives so much weight to a statement he made about five years ago, and they completely disregard very specific statements from 30 years ago, when he was in the thick of it all.

And they also disregard the recorded evidence, as well as photographic and video evidence.

For example, while I thing it's easy to simulate a flats sound while using rounds and your finders, I don't think you can pull it off as well with a pick.

Search YouTube for the isolated bass track for "Celebration Day" from the Song Remains the Same". I don't think you can cop that sound with rounds.

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by jobo4

100% awesome.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature...&v=UNVRIPgfRNE

Agreed!

BTW, this vid is interesting and helps to support the flats argument. Why? Well, his recent statement about rounds he said he switched to them in his studio days because flats didn't have enough sustain.

Well, if one were concerned with sustain, wouldn't you remove the felt mutes that were on your jazz bass? (As seen moments into Dazed and Confused in the linked vid.)

[mccartneyman]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Sorry, but the 361 power amp is solid state, too.

Link to specs page here: http://acoustic.homeunix.net/twiki/b.../BassPreamp360

Although the folded horn did accentuate bass frequencies, it could still sound "twangy" with Swing Bass 66 on P or J, because that's what I used in 1971 -73 Not Chris Squire twangy, but still easy to tell if they were rounds or flat strings.

[bigbajo60]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

Link to specs page here: http://acoustic.homeunix.net/twiki/b.../BassPreamp360

Although the folded horn did accentuate bass frequencies, it could still sound "twangy" with Swing Bass 66 on P or J, because that's what I used in 1971 -73 Not Chris Squire twangy, but still easy to tell if they were rounds or flat strings.

+1... especially if the amp was set to boost those higher freqs.

[ScottTunes]

IIRC, John Entwistle was working with Roto-Sound in the mid 60s to "refine" the RWs that he was after... Once Roto-Sound RWs were ready for sale, most bassists (particularly in rock) were eager to try them... This would include JPJ.

Although there is sonic "proof" of RWs being used in some early Zepp tunes, dead RWs can sound an awful lot like flats. RWs were certainly available to JPJ by the time Led Zepp was gigging... And I'm sure, like many bassists then (and now) utilized RWs, he probably thought the flats were more comfortable to play...

FWIW, I started bass with flats in the 60s... When Dean Markley offered "Ground Round Wounds" in about 1976, I switched to them for a short while... I immediately missed the "cutting" power of flats (live), and didn't appreciate the high end and overtones cluttering up "my" sound, and interfering with the guitard's sound...

I can imagine in a limited 3 piece (such as The Who's guitar bass and drums), the RWs would fill things up quite a bit...

But in a crowded sonic landscape such as the 5 piece (+ singer) that I was in, the flats were better at "fitting in." IMO/IME/YMMV

That is a possible reason for having "mixed strings" available.

JPJ began his "stringed" career as a stand-up bassist who could "double" his parts with that new fangled contraption the "electric bass." That got him more studio time than just being a pianist/arranger.

Flats were the ONLY electric bass strings available for his early career. But the fad of the mid 60s was RW strings, started by "The Ox!" He admitted stealing strings from pianos to get that sound!!! LOL!

[62Jazzbass]

So I think I will try to get back to the original posters question. As I mentioned already, he used Rotosound RS77LD flats on his Jazz bass. That's the sound you hear on LZ I & II, the live album The Song Remains the Same, and disc 1 of The BBC Sessions. It's used elsewhere as well, but these are clear examples and I am fairly certain it's the only bass used for all of the above.

By LZ III he was mixing it up a bit, to include his single coil P bass with RS66LD rounds, as well as others. Its the p w/ rounds you hear on BBC Sessions disc 2, most noticeable in The Immigrant Song. There are some bootlegs out there of the early work on LZ IV, and you can hear the p bass/rounds raging while they are working on Black Dog, a riff Jones wrote.

Anyway, as for all of the above, there are many who will disagree with me, a and that is fine.