I need gauge help.

[Pirate11]

I have a five string Human Base BassX.oc5 tuned in A D G C F.
I have no idea the function of gauges, but would like to. Should i have a specific gauge.

Thanks.

[aerodyne1]

Heavy is better when tuning down

[aerodyne1]

Might have to raise your action a bit to compensate for the heavier strings though

[knuckle_head]

If you are tuning down I suggest;
.150 .112 .084 .061 .043

If you are tuning up I recommend;
.080 .058 .043 .031 .022p

[steve_rolfeca]

Low A tuning is tricky. The tension on normal B strings is already a little loose, especially with 34" or shorter scale lengths. However, strings larger than .130 or .135 tend to have intonation problems in the upper register, because they're so stiff. Also, "supersized" 5th strings often require intrusive, non-reversible mods to the bridge and/or tailpiece, to accommodate their girth.

Still, you have a number of options open. You'll have to check them out, and determine what works for your playing style.

1. Keep your current string gauges.
Raise the action slightly, tweak the truss rod as needed, and adjust your right-hand attack in order to reduce fret rattle.

PRO: Cheap, easy, no non-reversible mods to your bass. Fatter, rounder note attack thanks to the lower tension, a bit like switching to a short-scale bass. Learning how to minimize fret noise due to looser strings, will improve your technique in general.

CON: Higher action is harder on your fretting hand. A fatter, rounder attack may be the opposite of what you're after. Ditto for softening your right-hand attack.

2. Switch to a heavier normal string set.
You're only going down a whole tone, so you may be able to get away without resorting to a monster A string. D'addario Nickel XL's are cheap and have a good low B, so you could start there for your initial experiments. Unfortunately, they don't do a stiff 5-string set, so you'd have to mix-and match a loose XLB135 with a four-string medium-gauge set (EXL160). That would give you 50-135.

PRO: Should fit and intonate correctly with little or no modification, and will allow you to go back to normal gauges without problems. At most, you may have to shave the sides of the nut slots just a hair, to adapt for the thicker strings. Will give you more tension, and a quicker, tighter note attack. The .135 A string should intonate just fine to at least the 12th fret.

CON: String tension will still be a little soft, compared to standard gauges and tuning. You could still get a little more wallop, by going to heavier strings.

3. You could go heavier still, as per knuckle head's suggestion in post #4.
DR and Circle K make special sets for this purpose, or you can go with custom gauges. I don't know about the Circle K's, but if you search TB, you'll find mostly good reviews for the DR's, with a few concerns about premature breakage mixed in. I suspect that the breakage issue may be due to people jamming them on, without having a tech modify the nut, bridge, and/or tailpiece as needed.

PRO: Higher string tension for more bite, potentially the most balanced tone?

CON: Strings over .135 WILL have intonation problems, so you'll have to stay away from the upper frets on the A string (may not be an issue, if you only use the 5th string to pound out the bottom end). Some people go to taper core strings to deal with this (no windings over the bridge), which introduces a host of other fit and intonation issues. Depending on your bass, this can be a minor inconvenience, or a major hassle. Regardless, supersized strings will require further modifications to the nut, and may involve drilling out the tailpiece and/or other mods to the bridge, in order to accommodate the A string.

NOTE: Some people swear by "balanced tension" strings, figuring that the string companies have been ripping everybody off for years with badly-gauged string sets. Knuckle head's suggested gauges would make a good balanced-tension set for low A tuning, assuming that you're using Circle K strings (required gauges would be different for other brands).

Personally, I remain unconvinced. D'addario offers an unusually good low B, and their tension numbers are FAR from balanced. Besides, the larger companies already make a gazillion gauges and lengths, know how to read a tension chart as well as anyone else, and could bring balanced sets to market quite easily. Selling strings is a multi-million dollar business, so if D'addario, DR, or whoever could beat the competition by changing their gauges slightly, wouldn't they have done it years ago?

[ixlramp]

Okay I assume that's standard tuning detuned by a wholetone.

In my experience the A should be at least .145 for good tone. As long as it's flexible and has a short tapered section there will be no 'intonation' problems, I've used D'Addario .145s and they sound excellent up to and beyond the 12th fret. Circle K Strings sell excellent super-flexible strings of .142 .150 .158 with short tapered sections for good tone. You have a standard top-loading bridge so these big tapered strings will not require bridge modification and will work well.

If you like the idea of a tension balanced set (equal tension on each string) the gauges would be something like:

.045
.060
.085
.110
.150 (or .145)

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Besides, the larger companies already make a gazillion gauges and lengths, know how to read a tension chart as well as anyone else, and could bring balanced sets to market quite easily. Selling strings is a multi-million dollar business, so if D'addario, DR, or whoever could beat the competition by changing their gauges slightly, wouldn't they have done it years ago?

Perhaps they're just supplying the traditional gauges people want? Perhaps they're just concerned about releasing a product there is little mainstream demand for? The fact that most companies have not done a certain thing, is not a good reason to not do that thing. No one would ever innovate or progress

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

In my experience the A should be at least .145 for good tone. As long as it's flexible and has a short tapered section there will be no 'intonation' problems, I've used D'Addario .145s and they sound excellent up to and beyond the 12th fret.

I've never been into downtuning, but when I was first using 34" 5-strings, I tried Labella and D'addario rounds up to one forty-something (sorry, that was a while ago!) in standard tuning, and was very unhappy with tone and intonation. I found taper-wounds to be a mixed bag, with more zing, but also with unpleasant "extra" harmonics.

To each his own, I guess...

[Pirate11]

Thanks everyone.

I guess my only question now is what if i go (.135 .112 .084 .061 .043)?
Will it affect my neck (warp it, or displaced tension) and do you think the tone would suffice?

[Pirate11]

Extra mahalo's to steve_rolfeca. Good info.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Pirate11

Thanks everyone.

I guess my only question now is what if i go (.135 .112 .084 .061 .043)?
Will it affect my neck (warp it, or displaced tension) and do you think the tone would suffice?

How it will affect your neck, is the $64,000 question. I've never seen any research on balanced string sets, or related subjects like fanned frets or assymetrical neck profiles.

So all I have to go on is forum posts and personal experience. In nearly 40 years of setup work, I've never seen evidence of drop D or other unusual tunings causing twisted necks. In fact, all of the axial twists I've personally looked at, have been on instruments of questionable quality- cheap offshore stuff, Fender or Gibson during periods like the late 60's/early 70's, when they were known to be having wood quality issues, etc.

And based on forum posts, there don't seem to be a lot of problems with basses that use assymetrical necks (Carvin BB, etc.), or with fanned-fret basses.

So my assumption is that if your neck isn't twisted now, a few pounds of torque from the strings, are not going to tip it over the edge. Assuming that you're currently using conventional string gauges, we're only talking about 20lbs or so of imbalance. For example, at concert pitch, D'Addario EXL170-5's range from a low of 32.9lb (middle A string) to 51.3lb (D string). The set has a collective imbalance of about 23.1lbs (71lb for the E and A, vs 94.1lb for the D and G).

You can check this for yourself, by fretting the B string at the 1st and 14th frets. Look at how much daylight you can see under the string at around the 7th fret, and then repeat for the G string. If it's like most basses that I do setup work on, yours will have just a little more relief on the bass side.

I don't know why that is, but I've always assumed that it's because of geometry. Although (because?) the bass strings have lower tension, they are generally run a little higher off the fingerboard, which gives them more "pull" in a vertical direction. Perhaps a luthier or a string manufacturer will chime in on this question?

Anyway, if your neck is fairly straight with conventional strings, then you know that it will withstand a conventional imbalance of around 20-odd pounds, side-to-side. Unless it shows other signs of a floppy neck (fret rattles on the high strings when you tune to drop D, tuning instability, etc.), it seems reasonable that you'd be OK with about that much imbalance in either direction (bass side 20lb tighter than the trebles, or balanced tension, or treble side 20lb tighter than the basses)...

Damaging the neck in other ways just because you lowered the tension a little, is unlikely on a good bass. In a worst-case scenario, taking tension off the neck might cause a marginally loose truss rod to start rattling. Or the neck might not have enough truss rod adjustment range, resulting in some back bow. In either case, a good tech might be able to fix it. Even if they can't, you can always tune back to concert pitch, or order another set of strings in a heavier gauge...

Tone is anybody's guess. Look at the huge number of people who love stainless rounds, vs those who like dead flatwounds. Or the number of people who hammer the crap out of their basses, vs the number who barely stroke the strings- I recommend that you do all the research you can, but at some point, you're simply going to have to get your toes wet, and see what happens...

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by Pirate11

Thanks everyone.

I guess my only question now is what if i go (.135 .112 .084 .061 .043)?
Will it affect my neck (warp it, or displaced tension) and do you think the tone would suffice?

If your bass has been handling standard imbalanced strings to this point your neck will be fine.

You will not like the .135 at A. I think the rest of the set will work just fine for you.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Pirate11

I guess my only question now is what if i go (.135 .112 .084 .061 .043)?
Will it affect my neck (warp it, or displaced tension) and do you think the tone would suffice?

I agree with the others. The tension imbalance will be much less than a standard set. So no problem.

Circle K strings tend to be a little tighter for the same gauge compared to other manufacturers. If you use a Circle K .136 it will have 31 pounds of tension at A. That's a low tension and is right at the limit of practicality, but my experience is that 30 pounds is just enough tension for a reasonably good tone. The string will need a light technique since it will be somewhat floppy.

So .136 .112 .084 .061 .043, all Circle K, will just work okay in my opinion.

If you widen the nut slots there will be no problem going back to thinner gauges in future. The string is not held in place by the slot walls, it is the downforce at the nut that centres the string at the bottom of the curved slot floor. I'm currently using a .045 in a .135 slot with no problems.

[ixlramp]

Pirate11, do you know what gauges are on the bass now? Do any of the strings feel too tight or too loose?

[Pirate11]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

Pirate11, do you know what gauges are on the bass now? Do any of the strings feel too tight or too loose?

I have the stock strings of my bass and they seem fine, not tight or loose. I'm not sure what gauge they are, but i do now understand gauges more! Thanks.

steve_rolfeca
Thanks again. I think i'll get my toes wet.
How does your human bass work for you? Noticed your picture. pretty sure no one else makes that body.

I suppose I'll look into the Circle K (.136 .112 .084 .061 .043) set ixlramp suggested.
WOOT!

Thank you.

[Pirate11]

Knuckle Head, What type of music do you play? And why not .135?

[knuckle_head]

I play industrial and experimental music, and I spent time as an audio engineer prior to getting in to instrument and string design.

What I suspect you'll find with that set is the .135 will sit sonically different and apart from the rest of the set.

[Pirate11]

Mahalo's Knuckle Head

[steve_rolfeca]

If you're going to use knuckle head's strings, it only seems logical to go with his recommendation for a fatter low A. After all, nobody knows his product better.

If there turns out to be a fit issue, I would imagine he will look after you.

Keep us posted on your findings. This is a really interesting thread.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Pirate11

I have the stock strings of my bass and they seem fine, not tight or loose. I'm not sure what gauge they are

Okay cool The specifications say the stock strings are D'Addarios. Manufacturers usually fit a medium / medium-light tension set. If you visit the D'Addario pages for each set you'll see tensions for each string. Your strings are probably this set:

XLB045 G 0.045 42.8 pounds of tension
XLB065 D 0.065 51.3
XLB080 A 0.080 42.0
XLB100 E 0.100 36.5
XLB130 B 0.130 34.5

As you can see the high strings are a lot tighter than the low, this is the 'traditional tension' pattern and almost all bass sets are similar to this pattern. Circle K Strings however design their sets to have roughly equal tension on each string (balanced tension).

When you detune the tensions become:

XLB045 F 0.045 34.0 pounds of tension
XLB065 C 0.065 40.7
XLB080 G 0.080 33.3
XLB100 D 0.100 29.0
XLB130 A 0.130 27.3

Large gauge strings have more mass and therefore are more prone to floppiness, they need more tension to keep that mass in check and vibrating 'tightly'. In my experience big strings like .100 and .130 need at least 30 pounds of tension for good tone.

So you can see the A and E need to be a larger gauge, which makes them tighter. The high strings are more than tight enough.

XLB105 D 0.105 32.0 pounds of tension

XLB135 A 0.135 28.6
XLB145 A 0.145 32.9

D'Addario don't sell a set with a .145 so you'll need to build a set with single strings. I recommend at least a .105 D and a .145 A. You'll only need to widen the slot a little for the .145, this can be done DIY as long as you learn how to do it properly.

You can design your own sets with the tensions you want by downloading the excellent daddario tension chart pdf.

Circle K Strings do sell sets for detuned basses, I recommend a balanced set with a .142 or .150 lowest string.

NOTE: Circle K are closed for a couple of weeks.