The low C# string mastered...

[Garry Goodman]

After just about a year of learning to play the low, .195 C# string and recording with it ,i felt pretty good about it's usefulness on a bass guitar.

I recorded a bass track with the Adler 11-string through a one of a kind Basson B-310 cab and also a DI. I could hear the low,open C#. I was plugged in to an SSL G console and recorded into Pro Tools HD V.6 at 96k.

I thought it was clear and sounded great.We mixed on another SSL G(plus) at Paramount American on NS-10m's , switching to the built in overheard monitors.The bass sounded great and you could hear the low C#.

The real ear opener happened while mastering at Paramount Mastering with Bill Dooley.He uses an $8000 pair of Adams monitors. Three way, tri-amped at 300 watts.They are made in Germany.Audiophile heaven.

When those notes ,the low A on the 3rd fret ,F# string and the open 17. Hz C# sounded...... It was like standing in the 32' rank of a pipe organ. I have never heard anything sound like that coming out of a speaker. The low C# was as clear as the regular low E on a 4 string. i didn't know a bass guitar could sound like that. Interestingly,the speakers bottom out at 30Hz.

Jauqo,you have forever changed the meaning of "bass". I just used that string on one tune. You have an entire CD on a Sub Contra 4 string.
Now I can see the C# string being a viable option . You need the right speakers to reproduce it,but we could still hear the string on a pair of Sony head phones.

[elros]

Way cool, and quite interesting as well.

I'd love to hear the sub-contra bass in a mixed and mastered recording, like what you describe. Are there any CDs available for purchase as of now, or in the immediate future? Or any high quality sound clips available for download anywhere?

thanks.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by elros

Way cool, and quite interesting as well.

I'd love to hear the sub-contra bass in a mixed and mastered recording, like what you describe. Are there any CDs available for purchase as of now, or in the immediate future? Or any high quality sound clips available for download anywhere?

thanks.

If you have a system with a sub woofer, you should be able to hear the subcontra bass. My point about the Adams monitors is that the note is audible and clear.Stereo systems may change to accomodate this idea.
The only two C# string CD's I know of are Jauqo III-X's "Low C# Theory" and Nielsen-Goodman Project "Tap Dance on A Cloud". They should be available on CD Baby soon. I wish you could hear the clarity and power of the C# string on a system that can reproduce it.

[angelopb]

Are there any MP# files we can download? I will rip it to disc and play in my car stereo.

[JAUQO III-X]

I finished the Mastering of my CD and now I'm off to the next Phase of getting This project to the Public(I'm shooting for a Jan release)there will be a few reviews coming soon from some TB Members(I have no clue what they will say).

[Suckbird]

I've yet to master the e-string.

[lucas vigor]

Questions, if the low C# on a piano (which is ultra-long scale) is barely audible as a note, how the heck can a 35" scale low C# be heard?

How expensive is it to constantly replace these low F# and C# strings on an ongoing basis, and, how many companies actually make the strings, and what will you do if they stop making them?

(I use mostly flats, and never change them, but some round players change every week! With custom strings, that would not only be costly, but impractical. )

What scale lenght are these 11 and 15 string basses?

I know the knuckle bass can handle it, at 39"..but these conklins and others appear to be no more then 35"

[Jean Baudin]

Originally Posted by Ninestring

The only two C# string CD's I know of are Jauqo III-X's "Low C# Theory" and Nielsen-Goodman Project "Tap Dance on A Cloud".

Both Stew McKinsey and I have solo albums coming out that will have the low C# on them. Please pay attention.

Lucas - The low C# can be heard. But it's not quite like anything you've heard before. I believe Jauqo had the first strings made by Dean Markley, but the only ones being made right now are by SIT. I have a couple in front of me and they are much like a piano string. My 11s have fanned frets starting at 36" scale for the low string - I've put one on my 35" 9-String running through an Accugroove Whappo Grande and the sound was distinct and "unearthly". However, I'd imagine most stereo systems won't be able to reproduce the low frequencies accurately unless you've got a subwoofer.

[andrewd]

im guessing these frequencies won't be well reproduced by an ampeg BSE410HLF?

maybe when i get a good enough cab i will convert my GT4 to subcontra!

[Garry Goodman]

The C# string is "low" ,but with the right bass,electronics, speakers etc. it is as clear and audible as your low B. Because of the miracle of electronics, the ear(mind) can be directed to hear the note. You can determine the note is low and feel the fundamental,but it is the overtones properly balanced in volume, that make the string work.

After a year of r&d with the low C# string,learning how to play it and eq it,and performing and recording with it, I have a better idea of what I am talking about. The piano (low A) is as low as I've played on a piano. The same note as the 3rd fret,F# string. It is purley acoustic and needs the length to produce the note. 34" is plenty with the right bass and electronic ,to shake a building. As I mentioned earlier-after hearing the C# string on my 11 string reproduced through the Adams monitors, I was "blown away". it is clear but has the power of a pipe organ bass pipe.
That was at Paramount Mastering.A good reference for what sounds good.

i am grateful to Basson sound for taking the time to develope and create a reasonably priced cabinet to reproduce the 11- string bass range in a live situation.
The note is clear and audible on a pair of good headphones. I used the 11-string on a tune "Bubblework" and the bass part spans 5-6 octaves ending with the low ,open C#. Everyone who's heard it was amazed at the clarity. I just heard Jauqo's CD ,and the Adler fretless subcontra is just as clear. The string works.Once you get a bass with that string,it will take a while to incorporate it into your playing, but once you get everything going, you will wonder how you ever played without it.

[john turner]

cool, garry. i've been doodling around with a low c# on one of my 8 strings and i've been very impressed with the results too, although i'm still tweaking my setup for it.

can't wait to hear the finished product. any idea of an eta?

[Garry Goodman]

John-
Great! I didn't know you had a C#! Very cool....Yeah, now that I've heard what the string can do, I am hooked.
My CD "Tap Dance on A Cloud", Nielsen-Goodman Project, will be out in the next week or so. It will be available at CD baby this month. I will have some with me at winter NAMM. I can give you a copy.

[lucas vigor]

Well, I am going to NAMM...which booths/companies will have examples? Adler? and in the noisy environment, will it do it justice?

I am and will always be mainly a 4 stringer, and the 6 that I do own is tuned up E to E....(I use conklin snakeskins 7 and throw out the low B) but i have to admit I am intrigued!

I was told that experiments were conducted a long time ago, on using sub-harmonic frequencies that although could not be heard in the regular sense, but were actually felt thru your whole body, and that the result was the feeling of "fear"!

Do you suppose that is true?

[lucas vigor]

After thinking about it, I realized that comparing it to a piano is wrong..a piano is limited by it's size, and to properly amplify the lowest notes would require a piano at least 6 times as big as the biggest grand!

But, when I play with my synth, I am able to get those low notes...and hear AND feel them..so, I guess with the help of electronics, EQ and speakers like the new 21" versions that I have been seeing, I suppose it's possible!

I imagine bass players who use these set-ups probably never get kidney stones, right?

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Ninestring

John-
Great! I didn't know you had a C#! Very cool....Yeah, now that I've heard what the string can do, I am hooked.
My CD "Tap Dance on A Cloud", Nielsen-Goodman Project, will be out in the next week or so. It will be available at CD baby this month. I will have some with me at winter NAMM. I can give you a copy.

cool. i look forward to it

[john turner]

oh, and by the way, for those of you who don't know, the "mastered" in the title refers to mastering a recording before final replication.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by lucas vigor

Well, I am going to NAMM...which booths/companies will have examples? Adler? and in the noisy environment, will it do it justice?

I am and will always be mainly a 4 stringer, and the 6 that I do own is tuned up E to E....(I use conklin snakeskins 7 and throw out the low B) but i have to admit I am intrigued!

I was told that experiments were conducted a long time ago, on using sub-harmonic frequencies that although could not be heard in the regular sense, but were actually felt thru your whole body, and that the result was the feeling of "fear"!

Do you suppose that is true?

I will be at Adler Guitars and Basson Sound. Last year we shook the ground with the low C# and the Basson 4X10. Basson will have the Basson B510SC, especially designed for the C#-Eb span guitar. Come by and feel the C# crawl up your legs while you hear the overtones clearly crossed over.Now that "the Crue" have re untited, I think Nikki Sixx will be at Basson.He uses the 8x10. We will try to fit in a few subcontra demos.

As far as feeling fear when playing/hearing the note.....I was jumping up and down yelling "Yes!! Yes!!! Yes!!!!" with a big smile when i heard the string on the Adams monitors. Up until now ,other than this string and a pipe organ 32' stop, this note was created electronically.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by lucas vigor

After thinking about it, I realized that comparing it to a piano is wrong..a piano is limited by it's size, and to properly amplify the lowest notes would require a piano at least 6 times as big as the biggest grand!

But, when I play with my synth, I am able to get those low notes...and hear AND feel them..so, I guess with the help of electronics, EQ and speakers like the new 21" versions that I have been seeing, I suppose it's possible!

I imagine bass players who use these set-ups probably never get kidney stones, right?

Right,all is disolved. From what I have experienced, 21" speakers aren't the answer. We have been using 10" speakers. Part of the the formula is the balance of the overtones that lets you hear the pitch of the note. The two Adams monitore have a 10" woofer as the largest speaker. They literally shook the walls at 300 watts. We are really dealing with reproduction from a CD. It took a while for the cones on the Adams to move back after the last C# note sounded.It was my first experience with Adams monitors.

My thought, when starting this thread, was to share the experience because I haven't heard a professionally mastered recording with the low C# until now. Bill Dooley, Mastering engineer at Paramount in Hollywood,CA. concurred the note was easily recognizable as a C#. I think that if you can't hear at least the pitch on, say, a pair of NS10m's,it is useless to have a c# string. You can hear the string, but an $8000 pair of speakers will "knock your socks off".I think the notion of not being able to hear the note is based on not having the oppertunity to hear it.

[JAUQO III-X]

As far as being able to hear the Low C# it is more than possible with the proper research.most people don't know it but most stereo headphones has the ability to go down to 10hrz(don't take my word for it).I wouldn't recommend using stereo headphones for a mix references but I would recommend using a pair for referencing the clarity of the Low C#string.my Subcontra Bass is 34"scale.I have always chose to use 10"speakers because they allow me the best Clarity.21"speakers are for the most part muddy and very limited to the distance of Bass wave traveling.Bass notes flowing from a 21"is very easley lost at about 4-6ft away from the speaker.10's travel much farther than 21"speakers and allow much more clarity to last much longer without the speakers/note decaying rapidly.

[Jean Baudin]

Originally Posted by Ninestring

From what I have experienced, 21" speakers aren't the answer.

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

21"speakers are for the most part muddy and very limited to the distance of Bass wave traveling.

Which 21" speakers have you guys been testing/using to come to this conclusion?