mixing up some strings on my acoustic fretless

[robmill3r]

Never thought I'd have a first post as a new thread, but here goes...
I've contacted about every string mfg'r I could find and none have been able to help me.

I have a samick 5 string fretless acoustic bass (birdseye maple- sweet!). I've been experimenting around with different strings and reading a lot about them. I'm after a sound balanced on the heavy flatwounds I'm using on my E & A strings.
I very much covet the sound of nylon on nylon for the D & G, and have a G string already- cut it down from a pre-Fender V. C. Squier double bass string I found at a garage sale- it unraveled a bit when I started working with it, so I know I need to replace it as well. I plan to leave the E & A nickel flatwound (already on it) and use a nylon tapewound 135 for my B in this setup to bring that low string a little more out of the mud. Any resources, feedback, alternative ideas, or whatever would really be appreciated!

[robmill3r]

sorry- I maybe wasn't clear.
I can't find the nylon/nylon anywhere, and noone I've spoken with can/ will make them for me.

[Lokire]

There are no nylon on nylon strings made for bass guitar specifically. You mean like a black nylon tapewound string with a nylon core? I wish it existed too, but it doesn't. The closest you'll get is with Thomastik-Infeld Acousticores. Nylon core with bronze roundwound windings. That's what I use on my acoustics. Let them age for a year or so and they'll start sounding better and better. Nice and deep.

If you're looking for some other nylon-core string, then you'll have to do some deep searching outside of the 'bass guitar' realm. If it's a 30" scale bass, you can try gut-core cello strings. Or get custom made plain gut strings. Bass viol de Gamba strings...etc.

[DavidMP]

You could have a look at Hillbilly Slap Strings or LaBella Supernil D and G which are double bass strings and might be significantly lower tension. I use Rotosound Tru-Bass (RS-88) because they are higher tension can can drive the top of my Epiphone more effectively so I get more acoustic volume for practise but if you are always plugged in this might not be a problem. RS-88 are Nylon wound steel, Hillbillies are Nylon wound on Kevlar and the first two strings of the Supernils are Nylon on Nylon.
Lower strings are usually metal wound because to keep the tension in a usable range you need to increase mass (given a fixed scale length); if you increase the mass with nylon alone you end up with a really big diameter for the string and this can be uncomfortable, switching to a denser wrap lets you reach the desired mass at a smaller diameter

[robmill3r]

Thanks guys. I only want these strings for my D & G.
Here's the problem, as John Doughtry @ ROtosound has been explaining to me:

"As far as our double bass strings are concerned they incorporate a nylon core comprising 40 strands of nylon floss of very fine filament. This is twisted on the machine locking one end and turning the other. The two heads of the machine are then once again synchronised so as to lock the twist. If I understand you correctly the covers must never be removed; you just wreck the string! The tension dies for one thing, loses its tone and then the whole string falls apart.

Once the string is finished and taken from the machine the tail is cut to size which would otherwise still incorporate some extra length and a loop necessary when on the machine. In other words it cannot be remounted on the machine as it is now too short with no way of fixing it.

Incidently, it takes about 20 minutes to make one double bass string and are only made periodically when stocks get low. It takes real skill to make these as you may gather."

I'm thinking>>>
If I purchased a nylon/nylon and wanted to cut it shorter, here's my theory for doing it-
1. put it under moderate tension.
2. glue nylon tape in place just below where I plan to cut it.
3. wrap it where I glued it.
4. cut it
So in steps 2 & 3, what kind of glue should I use and is there some secret to wrapping it?
Am I missing any steps?

Am I just CRAZY?

[robmill3r]

BTW: I learned this first hand when I cut down the string I already installed- that G.
when I cut it, the tape immediately relaxed on the filament and I "choked" it to keep it from just turning into a pile of nylon tape.
Luckily, I caught it above the nut, so we used a cigarette lighter and melted the nylon tape to the filament.
I'm pretty sure I lost a little bit of tension on the tape, and I expect this "rigged" setup to fall apart at any minute, as the uncovered melted nylon is probably to brittle to appreciate being wrapped around my tuning peg.

That's the whole problem with the nylon/nylon.

In this garage sale lot of double bass strings, I came up with some copper and brass for the E/A's and one gut. the gut broke apart as soon as I took it out of the package, but i played around with shortening the scale of the metal strings, even took the outer metal down to just above the nut so it would fit in the peg. Worked out fine, but the tone was duller than my flats.

Here's my dream setup:
B> 145ish nylon on steel
E> 110 flat
A> 92 flat
D> 72 nylon on nylon
G> 58 nylon on nylon

this would bring the overall brightness about even to the E/A overall.
I just have to either figure out how to cut down the nylon double bass properly or find a manufacturer who'd be willing to work with me on this.

[robmill3r]

Originally Posted by Lokire

The closest you'll get is with Thomastik-Infeld Acousticores. Nylon core with bronze roundwound windings. That's what I use on my acoustics. Let them age for a year or so and they'll start sounding better and better. Nice and deep.

I've looked at those strings, and they are REALLY LIGHT! No indication if they are round or flat wound either...
Should I step up to the .053/.068 since I have heavier strings on the rest of the bass? Will I loose the desired sound? How bad a change in string tension would I be looking at if I did the recommended .041/.053 and would I be risking torquing the neck?
BTW: have you played them next to flats? how do they compare? I really need something duller than a flat!
Wonder if I should just buy a whole 5 string set and get over all this mess...

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by robmill3r

I've looked at those strings, and they are REALLY LIGHT! No indication if they are round or flat wound either...
Should I step up to the .053/.068 since I have heavier strings on the rest of the bass? Will I loose the desired sound? How bad a change in string tension would I be looking at if I did the recommended .041/.053 and would I be risking torquing the neck?
BTW: have you played them next to flats? how do they compare? I really need something duller than a flat!
Wonder if I should just buy a whole 5 string set and get over all this mess...

Hi Rob, I use the Acousticore strings on my ABG. They are roundwound and are brighter and lower tension than the TI flats. Love them!

I totally support your search for the perfect strings, however, I think you are selling yourself short as far as your ability to adapt to different sets of strings. I am confident you could put a commercially available, matching set of strings on your bass and be comfortable on it within a month. You will save a lot of money and time, not to mention aggravation when you break a string! There are a lot of options available today, from bright stainless steel to thumpy tapewounds.

ps A low budget option would be to put a small piece of foam under the strings near the bridge. This would eliminate some of the "zing" for a duller sound.

[robmill3r]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

I am confident you could put a commercially available, matching set of strings on your bass and be comfortable on it within a month. You will save a lot of money and time, not to mention aggravation when you break a string! There are a lot of options available today, from bright stainless steel to thumpy tapewounds.

ps A low budget option would be to put a small piece of foam under the strings near the bridge. This would eliminate some of the "zing" for a duller sound.

I'd love to not worry about this. I know that in the long run, I'll not be able to sustain buying special nylon strings, but I've been playing these flats for 4 years, and they've never evened out. It's just so hard to EQ it, and if I get it right at home, I can never replicate it when I play out. I wonder if I just took everything up a brightness level- left the flats on the top 2 and put the nylons or the Acusticore on the bottom 3 then did the foam thing...

Maybe it's just the bass. I mean, that's possible, right?

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by robmill3r

I'd love to not worry about this. I know that in the long run, I'll not be able to sustain buying special nylon strings, but I've been playing these flats for 4 years, and they've never evened out. It's just so hard to EQ it, and if I get it right at home, I can never replicate it when I play out. I wonder if I just took everything up a brightness level- left the flats on the top 2 and put the nylons or the Acusticore on the bottom 3 then did the foam thing...

Maybe it's just the bass. I mean, that's possible, right?

Sure, it's possible it's the bass. However, Samicks are pretty nice instruments. (I think that my ABG was made at that same factory.)

Are you talking about the acoustic sound or the amplified sound of the instrument? Because if you are talking about the amplified sound of the instrument, there are so many different variables in sound other than the strings. For example, I've read stories here on TB about piezo bridges with uneven string to string response. In some cases, re-seating the bridge solves that problem. Or there may be something you can do with your EQ, amp, or speakers to get a more even string to string response. Adjusting between a tone that sounds good at home vs. a tone that sounds good playing live with a band, well, that's a pretty common topic here on TB...

ps I would not recommend mixing the Acousticores with other types of string. The difference in tension is extreme; I'd be worried about torque on the neck. I had to do some serious truss rod adjustment when I switched to them. Now they are perfect.

[robmill3r]

unamplified, the flats just don't give me enough volume to keep up with a guitar, so I'm always plugged in.

it's got an internal pickup and a 3 band eq on it. I really do try to dial it in, but its a mess.

I wound up breaking the d on it, so I guess its time for a new set anyway.

So- based on what I've been trying to do with this thing, should I just find a good guitar guy around here, tell him what I want to do, and let him see what kind of magic he can do between selecting strings and working on my pickup (or replacing my pickup...) or should I just drop the $90 in the TI's and see what that gets me, maybe try the foam thing?
OR... should I continue my quest for the illusive ridiculous setup?

[DavidMP]

I would first check that the saddle slot has a square bottom, the piezo strip sits nicely in it and the saddle itself has a flat bottom. String with some tape-wound strings (labellas from Carvin or RS88 should be a in the 30 to 40 $ range) and play with flat EQ to see if the string to sting balance is good.

[nathanmcnathan]

this reminds me why it's all stupid on the BG side... first, cello strings are meant to be tuned in fifths, starting at C on your bass's A string... second, gut strings meant for double bass would never have enough tension on a 34" scale, and you would have to set the action so high that it would render the bass unplayable

[Darkstrike]

Wow, what's wrong with experimenting?

For one that cello C would work as a D on a ABG. THe tension increase wouldn't be that much. The G would work as the high G, which is exactly what he's looking for. Those two strings.

[Lokire]

Originally Posted by nathanmcnathan

this reminds me why it's all stupid on the BG side... first, cello strings are meant to be tuned in fifths, starting at C on your bass's A string... second, gut strings meant for double bass would never have enough tension on a 34" scale, and you would have to set the action so high that it would render the bass unplayable

Have you ever really thought about it? Have you ever tried? Because I have. I did a lot of hard thinking, and ended up spending a lot of $ on non-bass-guitar strings for my acoustic bass. Gut-Core Cello strings to be exact. I'm well aware that cellos are tuned in 5ths. But I also know that you can get cello strings in different gauges/tensions. So, take a light gauge Cello C string, and use it as an A string. Then take a heavy gauge Cello G string, and use it for the D string. That way the tensions are pretty even between those two strings. For the low E, how about a Heavy gauge low A from a gut-core 7-string Bass Viol De Gamba set? Worked pretty well for me. If you want to go with a higher tuning, the high d from the same Bass Viol De Gamba set would make a great high C. Or maybe try some baritone classical guitar sets. Or you could get custom gauge plain gut strings from any number of string makers.

Also, super high-tension isn't necessary. In fact, too much string tension can easily damage an acoustic instrument. On my acoustic basses, I tune my (TI Acousticore, nylon-core) strings down as much as a 4th. Never had to (or even wanted to) raise my action any either. It just takes a more refined technique, and for me at least, it gives a better tone. The lower your string tension, the more fundamental you'll get. More BASS tone. Unless you want your bass to sound like a big twangy guitar (hey, some people do).

It's completely workable, if you dig a little deeper. Don't just call it 'stupid'.





Here's a video I did using gut-core Cello strings for the E and A. TI Acousticores (G and C strings, tuned down a 4th) for the D and G:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rNqVbA__YE

[nathanmcnathan]

Well, with an ABG you are dealing with maybe a 43" scale... that would possibly work with 'cello strings, but never with double bass strings meant to be strung for a 42" scale.
By the way, I love your tone Lokire! What you should try doing is getting a little more string behind the bridge - it looks like you have some of the nylon wrapping on the playing area of the strings, which could have a muting effect.
Anyways, the whole problem with using cello strings is that you'll always have some sort of problem... I'd reccomend the idea of Gamba strings, as they are meant to be tuned in fourths, and so it's just a matter of finding the correct guage.

[Lokire]

Originally Posted by nathanmcnathan

Well, with an ABG you are dealing with maybe a 43" scale... that would possibly work with 'cello strings, but never with double bass strings meant to be strung for a 42" scale.
By the way, I love your tone Lokire! What you should try doing is getting a little more string behind the bridge - it looks like you have some of the nylon wrapping on the playing area of the strings, which could have a muting effect.
Anyways, the whole problem with using cello strings is that you'll always have some sort of problem... I'd reccomend the idea of Gamba strings, as they are meant to be tuned in fourths, and so it's just a matter of finding the correct guage.

I could get the wrapping behind the bridge with a little work, but I like the muting effect

[robmill3r]

yo-Lokire, thanx for the heads up.
I ran low on cash and got frustrated with the whole mess last May- but Christmas came, so I'm lookin to set up my bass now.
That is the EXACT sound I want!!!
please- gauge and type of string, sir!

[Lokire]

For that video I was using a Pirastro Oliv Cello C (36 1/2 PM) for the E string, and a Pirastro Oliv Cello G (29 PM) for the A. Then Thomastik-Infeld Acousticores for the D and G (I use a G and C tuned down a 4th).

I've since gone back to my 'standard' setup with that bass, which is an ADGC set of Acousticores tuned down a 4th to EADG. I've been using the same set for over two years now and I want to keep them aging evenly.

I've also started trying some other string combos with my 6-string Kinal ABG. Using a mix of the Pirasto Oliv cello strings (sterling-silver wrapped gut-core), a plain gut cello string, and plain gut bass viol de gamba strings for the trebles. Tuned F#BEADG (the EADG being up an octave from a standard bass). Here's a video with that setup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeFNiF_Unlg






The two lowest Oliv strings are about as high as I want to comfortably tune them. The plain gut cello and viol de gamba strings could easily be tuned up another 3rd though. Still needs some more thought, but I'm getting closer

Keep in mind that I'm doing all this on a 30" scale, and I tend to like my string tension much lower than the average person. On a longer scale bass, you'll get more tension from the same strings at the same tuning. The Pirastro Oliv strings are about 35.5" from the knotted end to the start of the headstock silk, and the Sensicore bass viol de gamba strings are about 35" from the ball end to the start of the silk. The plain gut strings don't have any silk so they're all plenty long to fit a 35" scale instrument.

[robmill3r]

Nice work, Lokire!

so I was thinking about this set for my first trial:

V-d Gamba strings

6 strings to work with and less $ than the TI's...something to think about, for sure!

So I called Labella and got Bob. He strongly discouraged me from getting a gut set.
Maintenance issues, plus "that guitar needs a steel set to make the top move"
He recommended 760NB's.
Said I'd love them even though the'd have a bit stiffer tension than the TI's. Lookin around, tho- I'm kinda curious about the deep talkin flats

Anybody played these LaBellas against the TI's and have some honest feedback?
Bob has just about scared me away from gut, at least for now- I just need to get this guitar back in playing condition!
I'll experiment later.