Need a string recomendation that has the same tension (neck pull) as DR Sunbeams

[Jim C]

Pulled an old Jazz out of mothballs that does not have the ability to maintain a reasonable neck relief with stiff strings
Tried some DR Sunbeams (.045 - .100) that allow a perfect set up but miss the growl of the Blue Steels that were previously installed (Blue Steels were so stiff that tightening the truss rod resulted in a ski jump).

Any suggestions as to what strings would offer the same amount of neck pull as the Sunbeams but in a stainless wrap?

Not sure if the round core that is used on both Sunbeams and Hi Beams mean string tension is the same and an email has not yet been answered from DR
Thanks

[CapnSev]

I would guess High Beams, as the Sunbeams are marketed as the nickel version of them. They both feel the same to me tension-wise.

[Jim C]

Thought I'd wrap this up as I just received an email from DR:

Hi Jim
The strings are made exactly the same way tension will be the same.
Thank you
Tom

Don't know if this applies to all manufacturers but the nickel plating does not affect string tension of SS roundwounds with DR.

[Meatrus]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Don't know if this applies to all manufacturers but the nickel plating does not affect string tension of SS roundwounds with DR.

Quite right IME, them being stainless wont add any actual tension, but apparently some people can notice a feeling of increased stiffness. Whether this is true (them being stiffer) or not is up to you to decide, I personally have never noticed it nor could see how its possible.

[Darth Tater]

You could try Dunlops.

[knuckle_head]

You are after a feel difference - DR is right, the physical tension between types (metalurgically) within brands and separate brands is near-identical.

Stiffness is a matter of string construction/process and is the biggest difference between manufacturers and flavors within brands. It is way too often confused with tension.

[Jim C]

I understand what you are saying, but what I am after is string tension as in the amount of force the string exerts on the neck when tuned to pitch.

Many of the 70's J necks (especialy with blocks and binding) will "ski jump" with high tensions strings. When the neck relief is set at a reasonable distance, the truss rod is very tight, and the neck humps at or near the mounting point.
Luthiers have told me over the last 30 years that the only solution for these necks is to use a string with a lighter pull.

What I may have incorrectly inferred from DR's site is that the round core changes the tension when in fact they may mean the flexibility/stiffness.

It is amazing that string manufacturers don't publish this number as it is easily measurable and not a matter of opinion; then again, maybe I'm the only guy that cares.

[251]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Thought I'd wrap this up as I just received an email from DR:

Hi Jim
The strings are made exactly the same way tension will be the same.
Thank you
Tom

Don't know if this applies to all manufacturers but the nickel plating does not affect string tension of SS roundwounds with DR.

The tension comes from the core wire. The winding (round, flat, tape, nickel, brass, stainless) is the equivalent of the weight on a pendulum. It functions to sustain the vibration at pitch.

You may get the results you want with Blue Steel by moving to the next lighter gauge. For example, light gauge from medium light. You probably already know such a change demands a set up with intonation. It might even need a new nut if someone has already run this act (that is, built the bass for Medium gauge strings)

This worked well for me with a Steinberger that had too much bow. YRMV. 8-)

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by Jim C

I understand what you are saying, but what I am after is string tension as in the amount of force the string exerts on the neck when tuned to pitch.

Many of the 70's J necks (especialy with blocks and binding) will "ski jump" with high tensions strings. When the neck relief is set at a reasonable distance, the truss rod is very tight, and the neck humps at or near the mounting point.
Luthiers have told me over the last 30 years that the only solution for these necks is to use a string with a lighter pull.

What I may have incorrectly inferred from DR's site is that the round core changes the tension when in fact they may mean the flexibility/stiffness.

It is amazing that string manufacturers don't publish this number as it is easily measurable and not a matter of opinion; then again, maybe I'm the only guy that cares.

As no other manufacturer besides myself and D'Addario publish unit weight data you will not get or be able to figure specific tension from any one else.

That said, there are only so many ways to wrap multiple layers of wire to get it to a specific diameter. As such the data D'Addario and I publish is not only strikingly similar, it can also be applied to nearly any other brand of string you can buy.

It matters to me a very great deal, and I think that is reflected in the sets I sell - and the succinct answer to your question is use thinner gauges. The specific answer to your question lies in the unit weight data that D'Addario and I provide, and then apply it to the brand you prefer.

Originally Posted by 251

The tension comes from the core wire. The winding (round, flat, tape, nickel, brass, stainless) is the equivalent of the weight on a pendulum. It functions to sustain the vibration at pitch.

You may get the results you want with Blue Steel by moving to the next lighter gauge. For example, light gauge from medium light. You probably already know such a change demands a set up with intonation. It might even need a new nut if someone has already run this act (that is, built the bass for Medium gauge strings)

This worked well for me with a Steinberger that had too much bow. YRMV. 8-)

Rigidity can be affected by the core wire, but that is as far as it goes. Tension is defined by a specific mathematical equation using scale length, mass per inch that the string is comprised of and the pitch you are tuning to. Nothing more - nothing less.

If specific data is not provided, the next best indicator of mass is size. The thinner the string, the less mass there is. If you want to approach it scientifically you can use my or D'Addario's unit weight data and this formula;

T = (UW x (2 x L x F)²) / 386.4

... where T: tension in pounds per linear inch, UW: pounds per linear inch, L: scale length in inches, and F: frequency in hertz. There is a spread sheet calculator that greenboy has a link to; Take a look at the fEarful threads.

Frequency data is available from a multitude of sources, and is on the Circle K site as well.

[Johnny Alien]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

As no other manufacturer besides myself and D'Addario publish unit weight data you will not get or be able to figure specific tension from any one else.

Thomastik Infeld publishes their tension as well and I know there is another company I am forgetting. I was also able to get this information from DR via email but they do not "publish" it. You two are certainly not the only two that make that information available.

[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by Johnny Alien

Thomastik Infeld publishes their tension as well and I know there is another company I am forgetting. I was also able to get this information from DR via email but they do not "publish" it. You two are certainly not the only two that make that information available.

You are right that tension data is indeed available from a number of manufacturers, but unit weight data is not.

Unit weight data lets you glean tensions on alternate tunings and scale lengths other than 34" that a tension chart alone will not tell you.

[Johnny Alien]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

You are right that tension data is indeed available from a number of manufacturers, but unit weight data is not.

Unit weight data lets you glean tensions on alternate tunings and scale lengths other than 34" that a tension chart alone will not tell you.

OK gotcha. That sounds like math that my brain doesn't comprehend

[251]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

As no other manufacturer besides myself and D'Addario publish unit weight data you will not get or be able to figure specific tension from any one else.

That said, there are only so many ways to wrap multiple layers of wire to get it to a specific diameter. As such the data D'Addario and I publish is not only strikingly similar, it can also be applied to nearly any other brand of string you can buy.

It matters to me a very great deal, and I think that is reflected in the sets I sell - and the succinct answer to your question is use thinner gauges. The specific answer to your question lies in the unit weight data that D'Addario and I provide, and then apply it to the brand you prefer.


Rigidity can be affected by the core wire, but that is as far as it goes. Tension is defined by a specific mathematical equation using scale length, mass per inch that the string is comprised of and the pitch you are tuning to. Nothing more - nothing less.

If specific data is not provided, the next best indicator of mass is size. The thinner the string, the less mass there is. If you want to approach it scientifically you can use my or D'Addario's unit weight data and this formula;

T = (UW x (2 x L x F)²) / 386.4

... where T: tension in pounds per linear inch, UW: pounds per linear inch, L: scale length in inches, and F: frequency in hertz. There is a spread sheet calculator that greenboy has a link to; Take a look at the fEarful threads.

Frequency data is available from a multitude of sources, and is on the Circle K site as well.

Until I read what you have written, I thought of string tension in a mechanical way. The coil of wire surrounding the core would add a negligible amount to the measured tensile strength of the string. Your short explanation of tension dynamics will start me reading.

Thanks for the informative post KH. 8-)