question about string tension vs scale lenght

[Coal48]

I wanted a balanced tension set of strings for a custom 6 string bass I will have built by a luthier. I found a website that let me calculate gauges and tension for the strings: Guitar strings, Bass Strings & Accessories . For a 34 scale bass and a even tension of 52 pounds per linear inch I came up with this:

tuning / gauge
B / 171.82
E / 124.66
A / 90.47
D / 66.20
G / 49.47
C / 38.55

The bass I will have custom made will be a 36 scale bass and I do not know what gauges I should use to keep the tension feeling the same like the 34 scale bass because if I input the same note with the same tension, the string gauge decreases and that seems just wrong to me, I assume I must get larger gauges and not smaller ones, let me explain why...

An 'E' note on a 25,5 guitar would feel hard with a 48 gauge with ~20 lbs. If you take that same 'E' (52.41 Hz) with the same 48 gauge on a 34 scale bass, the tension will increase to ~35 lbs BUT that amount of tension on a bass feels light even though the tension increased.

So if I take the same gauge on the 34 scale bass and put them on the 36 scale bass, the tension would increase but I am sure they would feel lighter and I want them to stay hard on the 36 scale, so I need larger gauges but do not know which ones.

I would be very happy if anyone could help me with this, thank you very much for your time.

[bongomania]

I highly recommend you talk to the guy(s) at Knuckle Basses. They specialize in extra-extra-long scale basses and string sets.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Coal48

I wanted a balanced tension set of strings for a custom 6 string bass I will have built by a luthier. For a 34 scale bass and a even tension of 52 pounds per linear inch I came up with this:

tuning / gauge
B / 171.82
E / 124.66
A / 90.47
D / 66.20
G / 49.47
C / 38.55

The bass I will have custom made will be a 36 scale bass and I do not know what gauges I should use to keep the tension feeling the same like the 34 scale bass because if I input the same note with the same tension, the string gauge decreases and that seems just wrong to me

To keep tension constant, the gauge does indeed decrease as scale length increases. Everything is explained here: http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf This pdf is well worth studying.

There is another useful tension chart here: http://circlekstrings.com/CKSIMAGES/...nsionChart.pdf. This chart has the big gauges you are considering. Circle K Strings - Circle K Strings sell tension balanced sets with gauges up to .254.

I recommend using the D'Addario and Circle K tension charts instead of that tension calculator.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I highly recommend you talk to the guy(s) at Knuckle Basses. They specialize in extra-extra-long scale basses and string sets.

Yes bongomania is referring to Circle K Strings. They sell tension balanced sets for 36" scale basses, the choice of gauges is here: Circle K Strings - Medium Balanced 6 Strings.

The Circle K tension chart at http://circlekstrings.com/CKSIMAGES/...nsionChart.pdf is for a 34" scale. To modify the tension for a 36" scale, multiply the tension shown on the chart by (36/34)squared = 1.12.

A particular gauge that has a tension of 52 pounds at 36" will have a tension of 46.4 pounds at 34", so look on the chart for gauges that result in a tension of 46.4 pounds.

This set will have roughly 52 pounds on each string at 36":

6 String Set - Balanced Medium 150
.150 .112 .084 .064 .046 .035

[Coal48]

As I said before:

An 'E' note on a 25,5 guitar would feel hard with a 48 gauge with ~20 lbs. If you take that same 'E' (52.41 Hz) with the same 48 gauge on a 34 scale bass, the tension will increase to ~35 lbs BUT that amount of tension on a bass feels light even though the tension increased.

So if I take the same gauge on the 34 scale bass and put them on the 36 scale bass, the tension would increase but I am sure they would feel lighter and I want them to stay hard on the 36 scale, so I need larger gauges but do not know which ones.

So my strings need to have more than 52 pounds at the 36 scale (52 lbs is what I have on my 34 scale)

I already knew about circle k strings and I have sent them a message a few days ago but I still did not received any answer

But thank you very much for trying and finding all that info, I will study the tension charts to try and figure this out, thanks again.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Coal48

An 'E' note on a 25,5 guitar would feel hard with a 48 gauge with ~20 lbs. If you take that same 'E' (52.41 Hz) with the same 48 gauge on a 34 scale bass, the tension will increase to ~35 lbs BUT that amount of tension on a bass feels light even though the tension increased.

So if I take the same gauge on the 34 scale bass and put them on the 36 scale bass, the tension would increase but I am sure they would feel lighter and I want them to stay hard on the 36 scale, so I need larger gauges but do not know which ones.

A longer scale length does tend to make the same tension feel slightly looser, but the difference between 25.5" and 34" is huge whereas between 34" and 36" is very small so you only need to increase the tension by a very small amount. The .150 set I recommended does actually result in slightly more than 52 pounds tension on a 36" scale, so this will compensate for the slightly longer scale length.

[SLaPiNFuNK]

I believe this is why they make basses with fanned frets...

[Coal48]

I have discovered the 'correct' tension that will be equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34 scale bass to a 36 scale bass, its 59.5. Here is how I calculated this:

taking into consideration that 20 lbs on a 25.5 scale is fairly equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34, I subtracted 52 by 20 which is 32 and divided that number by counting every half inch separating the two numbers which is 17 (count the half inches except the first one), that gave me 1.8823525941 which is the proportional increase in tension at every half inch. Here is what it looks like:

scale / tension
25.5 / 20
26 / 21.88 <--
26.5 / 23.76
27 / 25.64
27.5 / 27.52
28 / 29.41
28.5 / 31.29
29 / 33.17
29.5 / 35.05
30 / 36.94
30.5 / 38.82
31 / 40.70
31.5 / 42.58
32 / 44.47
32.5 / 46.35
33 / 48.23
33.5 / 50.11
34 / 52 <--
34.5 / 53.88
35 / 55.76
35.5 / 57.64
36 / 59.52

Maybe tension does not increase proportionally every half inch and this is wrong but I will give this a shot and from there I will guess the approximate tension that could be wright.

The gauge I came up with a tension of 59.5 lbs and a scale of 36 inch are:

note / gauge
B / 173.82
E / 126.12
A / 91.52
D / 66.93
G / 49.46
C / 38.67

the difference between 36 and 34 scale is small but I am a perfectionist and am happy to have found exact numbers. Anyone, feel free to use this (if you want).

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Coal48

Here is how I calculated this:
taking into consideration that 20 lbs on a 25.5 scale is fairly equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34, I subtracted 52 by 20 which is 32 and divided that number by counting every half inch separating the two numbers which is 17 (count the half inches except the first one)...

I can see where you came up with this, but it's not good science. First you've got a "fairly equivalent", and then you subtract, and then divide, so all of the resulting proportions are just imaginary rough estimates.

In all seriousness, there are people who have spent a lot of time and money actually making and using these strings, who can tell you what works. The Circle K tension chart should be taken seriously, rather than some theoretical numbers you ran that are not based on actual testing.

If Circle K hasn't answered your email yet, try PM'ing Knuckle here, or see if JAUQO IIIX will intercede for you.

[bongomania]

Here is a very high-tension set, at 36" scale, according to Circle K:

B = 166
E = 130
A = 096
D = 072
G = 052
C = 037

[Rune Bivrin]

Originally Posted by Coal48

An 'E' note on a 25,5 guitar would feel hard with a 48 gauge with ~20 lbs. If you take that same 'E' (52.41 Hz) with the same 48 gauge on a 34 scale bass, the tension will increase to ~35 lbs BUT that amount of tension on a bass feels light even though the tension increased.

E is not 52.41 Hz.
E is 41.20344468 (give or take)
52.41 Hz is just above G#

[Coal48]

Originally Posted by Rune Bivrin

E is not 52.41 Hz.
E is 41.20344468 (give or take)
52.41 Hz is just above G#

sorry that was just a typo, the 'E' I was talking about is 82.41 Hz

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Coal48

I have discovered the 'correct' tension that will be equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34 scale bass to a 36 scale bass, its 59.5. Here is how I calculated this:

taking into consideration that 20 lbs on a 25.5 scale is fairly equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34,

No I very much doubt this, a 52 pound bass string will have a much higher perceived tension than a 20 pound guitar string. It is a mistake to extrapolate from this very suspicious assumption. Even a 35 pound bass string will also very probably have a higher perceived tension.

59.5 pounds is too high a tension, Circle K will tell you that bass strings start breaking at 60 pounds, it is insanely tight. You only need a very slight increase in tension for a 36" scale.

I'm sure that Skip at Circle K will be able to guide you to an appropriate tension as he has much experience with extended scales. He has indeed before recommended raising the tension by just a little when going to a longer scale.

Consider that 34" to 36" is an increase of only 5.9 percent, you could possibly take a rough guess by multiplying 52 x 1.059 = 55 pounds, but it may not work this way, even this may be too tight.

[Coal48]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

No I very much doubt this, a 52 pound bass string will have a much higher perceived tension than a 20 pound guitar string. It is a mistake to extrapolate from this very suspicious assumption. Even a 35 pound bass string will also very probably have a higher perceived tension.

I have tested this myself with a guitar and bass and I know 20 lbs on a 25.5 is fairly equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34 and that 35 lbs is light on a 34 but I also know that what I calculated to guess the tension at the 36 scale is much too inaccurate.

Anyways that is not really important anymore because I have been able to contact circle k strings and I will leave it to professionals to recommend me the strings I need, they replied to a first message I sent them, I have sent them a second one regarding my issue with tension and scale and I should finally get to know what gauges I need in their second reply.

thanks a lot ixlramp and bongomania for your advices, I am new to blogs and was not expecting anyone to notice, let alone, help me with this.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by Coal48

I have tested this myself with a guitar and bass and I know 20 lbs on a 25.5 is fairly equivalent to 52 lbs on a 34 and that 35 lbs is light on a 34

My apologies

[Coal48]

If anyone wondered why I wanted a string set with a balanced tension of 52 lbs heres why:

I am used to playing at hard tension, I used Ernie ball power slinky set in the past and I have now an Ernie ball super slinky set that I tuned up and right now I tried balanced tension by tuning it oddly (all the tension is calculated with that website calculator):
note / gauge / tension

Power slinky regular tuning:
E / 110 / 44.17
A / 90 / 54.01
D / 75 / 68.11
G / 55 / 66.14

Super slinky tuned up:
F# / 100 / 46.55
B / 80 / 54.46
E / 65 / 65.12
A / 45 / 54.79

Super slinky balanced:
G / 100 / 52.25
B / 80 / 54.46
D / 65 / 51.69
A / 45 / 54.79

I just find that any tension around 52 lbs sounds really good on low notes and is comfortable to play, thats just my opinion.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

59.5 pounds is too high a tension, Circle K will tell you that bass strings start breaking at 60 pounds, it is insanely tight.

Is that only true for rounds? On Chromes, the D string has a tension of 60.2 pounds.

[Coal48]

Originally Posted by seanm

Is that only true for rounds? On Chromes, the D string has a tension of 60.2 pounds.

I really do not want to upset ixlramp but I think he is wrong, in my previous post, I wrote that ernie ball power slinky D string (round) on a 34 scale bass, had a tension of 68.11 lbs which I remember being too hard to play but far from breaking. On a 36 scale bass even though the tension increases it will feel lighter so there is even less probability it will break.

hope this helps

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by seanm

Is that only true for rounds? On Chromes, the D string has a tension of 60.2 pounds.

Sorry what I mean is bass strings start breaking at 60 pounds, as in, some strings will reach breaking point at 60 pounds, while others with thicker cores can go up to 70 pounds, of course it depends on the string design. In my opinion 60 pounds is insanely tight but some people like it which is cool.