Rounds biting fretless board, am I using wrong oil?

Basstovsky · #1 01-10-2009, 03:30 PM

I've read a lot of threads saying rounds won't chew up a fretboard if its kept oiled, and I always oil mine every month or so.

Recently I re-oiled my fretless when switching from chromes to nickel rounds, but after a week or play the B and E are starting to chew into the board.

I've always used linseed oil on all my rosewood fretboards, do I need to buy a different oil for my fretless?

GeoffByrne · #2 01-10-2009, 04:22 PM

IMHO, rosewood is too soft to use with rounds on a fretless, and oiling makes it softer.

if you have Ebony, you shouldn't really need to oil it, as it's an oily wood anyway, and oiling would soften it further.

JTE · #3 01-10-2009, 05:16 PM

Oil?! Never heard of that! If you use rounds on fretless rosewood board it's gonna show wear. How much depends on how hard you press with your left hand, how aggressive your vibrato is, whether you apply side-to-side vibrato or it's all sliding along the string, how hard the outer wrap's alloy is, and how coarse the outer wrap wires are.

I totally discount concerns about wear- if rosewood and Rotosound RS-66 is the sound that makes the music happen, then plan on replacing the fingerboard pretty often. Making concession in sound to prevent maintenance work is silly to me. But my sound for fretless is stainless rounds on ebony. Not Rotosounds because they use a very hard alloy, and more importantly, their final wrap wire is very very coarse. That contributes to their characteristic sound, but it's the reason for their well-deserved reputation as fret files too!

Instead of oiling the fingerboard, which I think only softens the wood and exacerbates the wear, consider having it coated with epoxy or super glue. While that'll change the sound, it will slow down the wear considerably. Or consider replacing the fingerboard with a species that's harder. I like ebony myself, but I understand pao ferro is very hard and retains some of rosewood's character.

Or consider trying different string alloys- nickle is softer than stainless steel, and different companies use different alloys so you might find a nickle you like that's not too abrasive.

jte

frozilla · #4 01-10-2009, 05:21 PM

Honestly no matter what the fingerboard will have wear. Flats are better for fretless.

Lesfunk · #5 01-10-2009, 05:24 PM

Maybe we could send this over to the luthier forum and get some opinions. I've been told the opposite... that once oil penetrates the wood over time it actually makes the wood harder and more resistant to wear.

Flats are better for the fingerboard but not necessarily better for fretless. It depends on the sound you want. Jaco used the harshest roundwounds on the planet and his sound is considered the definitive electric fretless sound.

JustDavid · #6 01-10-2009, 05:28 PM

Depends on the oil. Tung (real) & I believe Linseed will. I believe Lemon doesn't.

johhn smith · #7 01-10-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Oil?! Never heard of that! If you use rounds on fretless rosewood board it's gonna show wear. How much depends on how hard you press with your left hand, how aggressive your vibrato is, whether you apply side-to-side vibrato or it's all sliding along the string, how hard the outer wrap's alloy is, and how coarse the outer wrap wires are.

I totally discount concerns about wear- if rosewood and Rotosound RS-66 is the sound that makes the music happen, then plan on replacing the fingerboard pretty often. Making concession in sound to prevent maintenance work is silly to me. But my sound for fretless is stainless rounds on ebony. Not Rotosounds because they use a very hard alloy, and more importantly, their final wrap wire is very very coarse. That contributes to their characteristic sound, but it's the reason for their well-deserved reputation as fret files too!

Instead of oiling the fingerboard, which I think only softens the wood and exacerbates the wear, consider having it coated with epoxy or super glue. While that'll change the sound, it will slow down the wear considerably. Or consider replacing the fingerboard with a species that's harder. I like ebony myself, but I understand pao ferro is very hard and retains some of rosewood's character.

Or consider trying different string alloys- nickle is softer than stainless steel, and different companies use different alloys so you might find a nickle you like that's not too abrasive.

jte

i have always used rounds on my fretlesses and they will mark the neck, but not overtly so. for the sound i feel the sacrifice is worth it. flats are not for me. one bass i bought had flats and as soon as i got home i cut the flats off and put rounds on. but that's me. that being said , linseed oil is the wrong thing to put on a bass neck. it will soften the wood and greatly speed up the breakdown of your fingerboard. one other interesting fact about linseed oil. be careful how you dispose of cloths or towels that you used during the application of the oil. a chemical reaction can take place and cause them to sponaneously combust. i used to be a furniture maker years back and was using linseed oil when a friend of mine told me about this and i found out he was correct. there should be a warning right on the label about this.

aluminumbassguy · #8 01-10-2009, 05:47 PM

A pressure wound or groundwound string might be an alternative. You can still get a pretty good "mwah" sound and it won't be so aggressive on the rosewood. I think oiling the wood is really just for dryness or cleaning. You might consider to look into having the fingerboard coated. I'm sure there are some guys with info on this on TB. I know Pedulla coats some of there boards. Just an idea.

Pilgrim · #9 01-10-2009, 07:16 PM

What the OP heard is wrong. Rounds will always wear a fretboard faster than flats or tapewounds. Rosewood is soft enough that is going to wear, period. Oil isn't a protective coating unless it's something that puts a hard layer over the wood. I think multiple layers of Tung oil might create enough of a layer to make some difference in wear, but I personally would not care to have that much gunk on my fretboard.

Play it, and when the wear is sufficient to cause problems, have the fretboard serviced.

Basstovsky · #10 01-10-2009, 10:19 PM

Well the oil says it penetrates into woods and forms a protective coat on the surface, so I thought that would be what I need. I always use the same rag for oiling and keep it away from any ignition source (thanks forthe warning!). I guess I may try gunstock oil (TRUoil) next, thats about as tough as it gets.

I tried chromes flats (ok sound but too thumpy) and half-rounds or groundwounds i just dindt like. I love the feel of flats, but I need the aggressive tone of rounds, and I have nickel rounds cause theyre softest i know of.

It's a cheap bass (defretted indonesian Millennium 5) so coating would be a waste of money, I guess I'll just live with the wear if gunstock oil doesnt do the trick, and sand the board smooth every couple months. It's not severe gouging (small cuts along the windings) but I worried it was something that would get nasty fast.

Thanks for all the responses!

markblasco · #11 01-11-2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basstovsky

Well the oil says it penetrates into woods and forms a protective coat on the surface, so I thought that would be what I need. I always use the same rag for oiling and keep it away from any ignition source (thanks forthe warning!)

Some oils, such as tung oil, don't need an ignition source to ignite. The act of evaporating causes it to combust, so if you use a rag to apply tung oil, than leave it in the trash can, it can start the fire. The best thing to do is to wash out these cloths, or if you are throwing them away, soak them in water and seal them in a plastic bag, so that they will stay wet.

Gordon of Eden · #12 01-11-2009, 01:07 AM

The age old round VS flatwound on fretless argument is getting tiresome. It all depends on the tone you are trying to get. More thumpy and upright like, go for the flats. More "electric fretless" such as you would hear with Jaco, Alain Caron, Richard Bona etc. you have to go rounds. Ive tried the groundwounds and pressurewounds and they are just not the same.
The rounds are going to leave marks regardless of what oil you use. And yes they will eventually wear down the board but that takes a long time. Unless you play only fretless alot and have only one bass you really should not worry about it and enjoy the tone you want.

johhn smith · #13 01-11-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basstovsky

Well the oil says it penetrates into woods and forms a protective coat on the surface, so I thought that would be what I need. I always use the same rag for oiling and keep it away from any ignition source (thanks forthe warning!). I guess I may try gunstock oil (TRUoil) next, thats about as tough as it gets.

I tried chromes flats (ok sound but too thumpy) and half-rounds or groundwounds i just dindt like. I love the feel of flats, but I need the aggressive tone of rounds, and I have nickel rounds cause theyre softest i know of.

It's a cheap bass (defretted indonesian Millennium 5) so coating would be a waste of money, I guess I'll just live with the wear if gunstock oil doesnt do the trick, and sand the board smooth every couple months. It's not severe gouging (small cuts along the windings) but I worried it was something that would get nasty fast.

Thanks for all the responses!

what is meant by spontaneous combustion is that no ignition source is required

Spontaneous combustion
Rags dampened with boiled linseed oil are considered a fire hazard because they provide a large surface area for oxidation of the oil. The oxidation of linseed oil is an exothermic reaction which accelerates as the temperature of the rags increases. If rate of heat accumulation exceeds the rate of dissipation, this reaction may eventually become sufficiently hot to cause spontaneous combustion of the rags. Linseed oil soaked rags should never be stored, least of all in an enclosed container. Instead, rags should be washed, soaked with water, or incinerated. A fire that destroyed the El Rey Theater-Golden West Saloon in February 2008 was ignited by the spontaneous combustion of linseed oil soaked rags left in a plastic container.

just something to be careful with

Dbassmon · #14 01-11-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Oil?!
I totally discount concerns about wear- if rosewood and Rotosound RS-66 is the sound that makes the music happen, then plan on replacing the fingerboard pretty often. Making concession in sound to prevent maintenance work is silly to me.

jte

I agree with JTE if you get your sound from Rotos on Rosewood, don't worry about neck wear, you will get many years before you eat through that finger board. I don't think it would be any faster than that so I would not describe that as pretty often. A coat of epoxy ala Jaco's "Bass of Doom" gives that rosewood board a hard surface, increases the zinging quality of the notes and will give you many, many years of service from that finger board. That is an other suggestion you can look into.

drden · #15 01-11-2009, 10:32 AM

Epoxy finish or even a few coats of, yes, superglue may prevent this

greenboy · #16 01-11-2009, 10:33 AM

Actually you build up the epoxy over several coats. I have six or seven on mine. Realize that it sounds different than a bare board so its not for everyone. And it too will eventually need servicing.

Hard woods and composites like ebony or ebonite/diamondwood are a good alternative to rosewood if you want more time between servicing but desire a more organic tonal envelope.

Superglue sucks - it eventually breaks down as much from hand sweat as it does from the strings.

P-BASSLOVER · #17 01-12-2009, 11:21 AM

It's not the oil, it's the strings!
Switch to a soft nickel round like DR Sunbeams or Nickel Lo-Riders if you
must have that gnarly mmwhaa. Your other alternative would be a brighter flatwound like D'Addario Chromes or GHS Bright Flats.

Basstovsky · #18 01-12-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-BASSLOVER

It's not the oil, it's the strings!
Switch to a soft nickel round like DR Sunbeams or Nickel Lo-Riders if you
must have that gnarly mmwhaa. Your other alternative would be a brighter flatwound like D'Addario Chromes or GHS Bright Flats.

Tried the Chromes and they were good flats but too much mwahh and not enough aggressive high end for the sound i want. I didn't realize the Sunbeams were softer than daddarios, I'll definitely get those in the future, jjust used the daddarios because I had them off a bass I dissassembled.

greenboy · #19 01-12-2009, 12:00 PM

On my layered epoxy board I always use nickel-plated roundwounds.

A lot of the time on my ebony board I use either Ken Smith Compressors or GHS Pressurewounds which have a soft final wrap wire that's compressed into an oval. This makes them smooth and easy on boards while still giving them plenty of mids and nice treble. They sound progressively duller in the heavier sets and also have a fair amount of tension in any gauges, so I go for the lightest ones to keep closer to a roundwound vibe.

That said, I like their sound and feel a lot whether using fingerstyle or a pick, and they last FOREVER. They aren't just a poor man's roundwound!