Is there a difference between tension and stiffness?

beyondat · #1 07-03-2009, 02:48 PM

I thought they were the same.

knuckle_head · #2 07-03-2009, 04:03 PM

High tension can make a string feel stiff, a stiff string is rigid regardless of tension.

Yes there is a difference.

beyondat · #3 07-03-2009, 04:10 PM

thank you

Jazz Ad · #4 07-03-2009, 05:33 PM

Huge difference indeed. It is what makes strings feel floppy on a bass and tight on another one een if they have the same scale and string jauge.

JustDavid · #5 07-03-2009, 05:42 PM

I think there is. I've caught that flats feel rather stiffer than similar rounds at similar tension due to the differences of the wrap. I've also caught that core material has an effect.

HogieWan · #6 07-03-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustDavid

I've also caught that core material has an effect.

not to mention the size of the core and subsequent wraps

hasbeen · #7 07-03-2009, 06:08 PM

without writing a thesis:
* tension is a factor determined by scale length of the instrument, mass of the string and pitch you are tuning to.
* two strings of the same mass will have the same tension when tuned to the same pitch over the same scale length, even if they are of different construction.
* stiffness is a byproduct of string construction. You can have to .135 strings that achieve this diameter in different ways. One may do it primarily with outer wraps and with a thinner core. This string will be more flexible in general than a string with a larger core and less outer wraps. Also, the type of core...hex vs. round etc. ....all of the elements that affect the stiffness of something.

I've come to the conclusion that when most bassists are speaking of a preferred tension, they usually mean stiffness.

beyondat · #8 07-03-2009, 06:50 PM

That clears it up! I have played TI's and I know they are not stiff at all but I read that they are high tension strings.

JustDavid · #9 07-03-2009, 07:40 PM

TI Jazz Flats are very low-tension strings.

Johnny StingRay · #10 07-03-2009, 08:41 PM

Tension occurs when there is no way to relieve the stiffness.

knuckle_head · #11 07-03-2009, 08:59 PM

Number27 · #12 07-04-2009, 02:29 AM

in my experience they usually go hand in hand.. but not always. like fender flats: high tension and very stiff. but then there's pyramid golds and galli flats with are relatively high tension but actually quite loose.

Solarmist · #13 07-04-2009, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbeen

* two strings of the same mass will have the same tension when tuned to the same pitch over the same scale length, even if they are of different construction.
* stiffness is a byproduct of string construction. You can have to .135 strings that achieve this diameter in different ways. One may do it primarily with outer wraps and with a thinner core. This string will be more flexible in general than a string with a larger core and less outer wraps. Also, the type of core...hex vs. round etc. ....all of the elements that affect the stiffness of something.

If you take two identical gauge strings other than the cores say a DR HB (round core), and DR LR (hex core) same gauge, tuned the same, and on identical basses -- will the round core have a wider amplitude?

I guess what I'm asking is what factors influence amplitude relative to the construction of the string?

hasbeen · #14 07-04-2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solarmist

If you take two identical gauge strings other than the cores say a DR HB (round core), and DR LR (hex core) same gauge, tuned the same, and on identical basses -- will the round core have a wider amplitude?

I guess what I'm asking is what factors influence amplitude relative to the construction of the string?

excellent question- everything else being equal, i.e. mass of string, then yes, it will. I'm helping a string company design a set of strings now and this is one thing we're looking at.

What I like about round core is that I can go up a "full gauge size" from hex core because of the "softness". And the larger diameter gives me a fatter tone. For example- I used to play 40-95 Boomers. I then switched to Sunbeam 45-105....the they feel easier to play.

unbridled · #15 07-04-2009, 08:57 AM

They feel similar. The force of tension pulls like this " <----->" Stiffness is the resistance to a side to side motion or bending.

Solarmist · #16 07-04-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbeen

excellent question- everything else being equal, i.e. mass of string, then yes, it will. I'm helping a string company design a set of strings now and this is one thing we're looking at.

What I like about round core is that I can go up a "full gauge size" from hex core because of the "softness". And the larger diameter gives me a fatter tone. For example- I used to play 40-95 Boomers. I then switched to Sunbeam 45-105....the they feel easier to play.

I was asking because wider vs shorter amplitudes will affect your setup relative to fret buzz.

I like round cores better for feel, but I use hex cores to keep buzz at a minimum.

knuckle_head · #17 07-04-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solarmist

If you take two identical gauge strings other than the cores say a DR HB (round core), and DR LR (hex core) same gauge, tuned the same, and on identical basses -- will the round core have a wider amplitude?

I guess what I'm asking is what factors influence amplitude relative to the construction of the string?

There is a huge difference in core material, from the way it's measured to the way it behaves.

Round core is measured for diameter, hexcore is measured on the flat. Hexcore at its apexes is 15% larger than its flat measured size so they are already on unequal footing.

Consider as well that six ridges along a wire's length make for a stiffer core material than a perfect cylinder.

If core size were reduced when hexed material is used that would balance things out a bit, but that isn't what is customarily done.

The bigger restrictor of amplitude in actual construction of a string is not round or hex, it's using too-thick a core. It's also an overtone killer.

greenboy · #18 07-04-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

The bigger restrictor of amplitude in actual construction of a string is not round or hex, it's using too-thick a core. It's also an overtone killer.

Though conversely, using a smaller core and then adding another wrap to get to a final diameter is a real choker as well. Defintiely makes sense to be moderate on core size and try to keep amount of wraps down lower when you get into fatter string gauges. Otherwise those low notes don't have much of a natural overtone series for upper content, just some inharmonics.

knuckle_head · #19 07-04-2009, 08:03 PM

See - tricky thing, string design.

hasbeen · #20 07-04-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solarmist

I was asking because wider vs shorter amplitudes will affect your setup relative to fret buzz.

I like round cores better for feel, but I use hex cores to keep buzz at a minimum.

You are dead-on. My right hand plays way back towards the bridge. So, I play round core and get less excursion...less buzz and "flap". People that play towards the neck can't play my basses.